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Thread: INTEREST FORM: Arena Reborn: Game Development Team

  1. #11


    billy [12:14 AM]

    I'll be combing through responses during my flight on Thursday to try and get a better idea of roles

    brandon [1:48 AM]
    I really really liked your pitch Billy you not nly sold me but gave me a pocture

    Picture of what a new game would look like

    O n

    Only* damn this keyboard lol

    Loved the unit ideas/names also

    fran2689 [5:07 AM]
    @govnik: Love your enthusiasm, I'll work on a few ideas this weekend

    govnik [9:22 AM]
    Old mario maps with circles to "change floors" would be cool too. Act like you are traveling to different parts of the world. Not sure how hard it would be, but each circle/floor with a different background image with a theme could be fun. Think Tactics Genesis' map with a unique one on each floor.

    meletus [9:24 AM]
    There will definitely be lots of ideas of what direction things should go.. Banner Saga is an amazing game graphically and for its gameplay and is a complete game glad I picked up via kickstarter. Now TAO and Tactics Core were both based on Final Fantasy Tactics in which what we all enjoyed with TAO was just one element of the overall game. Even Seed had planned on making more games or "rooms" based on the game engine he created for Core which then upgraded to TAO. Govnik's concept I feel is similar to what I had talk with him about a few days about about how I see the growth of this game. So I can list some samples but basically I think the Marvel Avenger Alliance ( concept is a great direction to go and i think here, ( someone made something similar. Now in both these example there are only 3 active characters. I think for a "story mode" there should be a low limit, 3-5 and you can earn items and if you complete the story whether bi-monthly or quarterly but at least year you can earn drop items and one character from the story mode. For example if we have a golems battle story line, there would be 4-5 new characters add to story mode side and by completing by a certain date you can add a new unit to your inventory, Like earn a mud.. or crystal or something new.

    Now the game lobby could and should have the familiar feel.. bit could also have the look of with that as my suggestion what I mean is.. You could select different play types like "grey" based games, Dragons vs Golems, knights only, magic only, pick your terrain, freestyle, etc. something of that nature where the games are all essentially the same but you get to used units you've unlocked and demo new units or just play strategies specific to your style.

    Billy like your presentation as well. (edited)

    enijar [11:13 AM]
    @billy: Awesome work on the presentation man!

    billy [12:06 PM]
    I think we can do better than Banner's artstyle, especially with WebGL. I'll take a look at FFT and your other recommendations :simple_smile:

    we can probably do a pve campaign, but that should be secondary to the core game :simple_smile:

    enijar [12:16 PM]
    Does anyone have the tile texture for the tiles in TAO, I'm almost done with a demo of the WebGL tile grid?

    meletus [12:16 PM]
    Banner's style is their own. Not planning on looking like them at all. But their game mechanics and win/lose/fail to the over line story is well done.

    billy [12:16 PM]
    @meletus Would you like to take point on building a single-player concept?

    meletus [12:17 PM]
    @enijar: Just one square?

    enijar [12:17 PM]
    @meletus: The whole lot if you have it

    meletus [12:18 PM]
    uploaded an image: taoboard.jpg
    Add Comment
    enijar [12:19 PM]
    Ah its just an image lol, I made a whole 3D tile grid with a movable camera. I spend nearly 6 hour on that FML

    billy [12:19 PM]

    enijar [12:19 PM]
    Each tile is a JavaScript object

    Oh well, at least we can use mine to more easiliy integrate into the game than just an image

    I'll put my demo here on a link tomorrow after work

    I'll link the repo too

    meletus [12:21 PM]
    hehe Well.. just go with #58534d or something around there.

    billy [12:21 PM]
    slack previews hex colors?

    meletus [12:21 PM]
    i liked that preview too!

    enijar [12:21 PM]
    Slack is awesome

    On the Mac client you can click and edit the color too like in Chrome dev tools :simple_smile:

    meletus [12:23 PM]
    If you need units just like me know. And @billy: Sure, if we can go in that direction I would love to. Also as character builder style Torchlight 1/2


    enijar [12:24 PM]
    @meletus: Do you have the units as .obj or .blend files?

    billy [12:27 PM]
    ^ they're 2d sprites in game afaik

    meletus [12:27 PM]
    Just png and in their full fla frames

    enijar [12:28 PM]

    meletus [12:28 PM]
    only person that would still have the 3dmax files would be seed.

    enijar [12:29 PM]
    I would prefer to have them as obj files but we can animate them as PNG sequences. It's the end of the world and we can always change them out for .obj files when we have a 3d guy on board

    meletus [12:32 PM]
    What about voxels?

    billy [12:33 PM]
    I would just plaster the png as a texture on a square for now

    enijar [12:33 PM]
    That's for Minecraft though

    billy [12:33 PM]

    enijar [12:33 PM]
    @billy: I think that;s best for now just for a proof of concept

    meletus [12:34 PM]
    Did you see the zelda verison? and more then just minecraft.. don't limit it :stuck_out_tongue:

    enijar [12:35 PM]
    True, but I think (for the tile board game at least) building out the board as a simple JavaScript array is good enough for now

    Voxels will be good for building a whole 3d world because you can load JSON chunks of the world

    meletus [12:37 PM]
    yeah define parts or the whole world.

    enijar [12:38 PM]
    I think the author abandoned that part of the library ~3 years ago. I remember following it on GitHub and he hasn't made a commit in ~2 years. I guess we can fork it and take off where the auther left it though, if we need to


    meletus [12:40 PM] just redid one and got a C&D and then uploaded to Github.. I've been having fun modding that here You can see all the actor files in js and just using 16x16 sprite panels.
    Zelda 30 Year Tribute
    A fan tribute to the greatest console game of all time, the NES Legend of Zelda.This open source project uses WebGL and voxels rendering to create a pixel-perfect replica of the original, all in Javascript. A fan tribute to the greatest console game of all time, the NES Legend of Zelda.This open source project uses WebGL and voxels rendering to create a pixel-perfect replica of the original, all in Javascript.

    enijar [12:42 PM]
    That looks pretty sweet

    meletus [12:57 PM]
    I apologize for putting on a free godaddy server.. god it runs absolutely slow. But I was impressed with what they were able to do and how while boxy not really lame.

    billy [1:31 PM]
    No worries ^_^ I didn't even know godaddy had free servers

    meletus [1:34 PM]
    like 256 mb RAM and 10 gig space.. I can hear the dial-tone connection from here..

    enijar [1:34 PM]

    You can't complain if it's free I guess

    Although you can get 10 times that for free on AWS

    But it's only free for the first 12 months

    meletus [1:41 PM]
    I'll keep that in mind.. Godaddy is free for 12.. and as long as you renew your domain.. it keeps being free the basic. Once you upgrade.. you have to cancel.. wait two months and go again

    billy [2:06 PM]
    @channel: Would anyone like to work with @meletus on PVE?

    billy [2:18 PM]
    low priority, but might be a good creative outlet ^_^

    trogdor [7:37 PM]
    I'd be interested

    moose [10:22 PM]
    Just a thought around Billy's concept and expanding on the clan system, would we want to look at adding in 2vs2 on a board? This was brought up several years ago for tag team battles but the mechanics always came under attack...the premise would be that if you went by 10 unit layouts, each player was able to use 7 units, but would share benefits or disadvantages of whatever set up being utilized was. Again this was very preliminary and due to spacing issues it never got off the ground.

    moose [10:27 PM]
    Also on that note both proposals about stories and monthly/quarterly adventures are neat, if we want to try something unique vs all the mobile games and campaign funded games,
    Might I suggest we use a competitive battle structure where opponents can set handi-cap segments and be able to reduce a units power to boost another units abilities, basically an expanded idea on the DSM when it was first launched

  2. #12


    billy [11:01 AM]
    @moose: we can definitely draw up a rough 2v2 system, and test it strenuously. we have to make sure it's actually fun

    meletus [11:35 AM]
    uploaded and commented on an image: games.png
    1 Comment
    I think Brutal's Seed of Chaos demo shows it has merit.. Granted its a FFA and only 3 knights per side I think a 3-5 units would work well and also hopefully not make games too long.. Thats something that should really be discussed and thought out. Also seperate thought - Removal of D/C's as guaranteed win but rather ppl can be in multiple games at once with a days inactive timer.. Can be a little as 4 hours, to 1-2 days like many games. concept:

    billy [11:57 AM]
    We should definitely look into asynchronous gameplay - the genre makes it really easy to implement

    We would need to test 2v2 with actual people and an expanded unit pool - BR's proof of concept is nice, but the only real progress he made was the AI.

    enijar [1:42 PM]
    @channel: As promised here is the 3D arena I have been working on on WebGL

    enijar [1:48 PM]
    The camera is very buggy and needs work but it's a start. I'm going to move onto the character movement now.

    enijar [2:09 PM]
    @meletus: Do you have the PNG image sequences for the units?

    meletus [2:39 PM]
    Have yes. There's about 150-200 per unit as straight png's. But by default they are saved on black. For real use, I have to add the shadow layer & color selection layer to the main frames and then export on transparent. Of also add the masking layer. How best to give them to you? and are you just using for place holders in this?

    billy [3:01 PM]
    @enijar so pretty!
    @meletus how were they saved om black? is that what flash exporters do? that's so much work to undo q_q

    enijar [3:03 PM]
    @meletus: I can remove the black with imagemagick CLI, can you send the raw PNG files?

    brandon [3:26 PM]
    @enijar: looks great!!!

    greg [3:55 PM]
    joined #general

    enijar [4:07 PM]
    @channel: Does this perspective look good to everyone?

    I based it off of this

    [4:07] (213KB)

    billy [4:59 PM]
    looks good! might be slanted a little too much toward the screen - no idea which axis that is though

    enijar [5:15 PM]
    I'm just pushing a version with 3d .obj files

    I still need the PNG files from @meletus

    enijar [5:24 PM]
    Right, I'm off now. Here is where I go to

    Just some basic 3d obj files that can easily be placed on the grid. I will work on unit movement and attack tomorrow

    billy [5:25 PM]
    looks sweet! If you need some terrible movement and turn logic I have them in c++

    enijar [5:26 PM]
    Yes, can you send me that through. I will just port the algorithm over to JavaScript

    Also, do we have any 3d artists here to build the units?

    I'd rather have the units as 3d models because we can use them for other things (such as the open world, etc.)

    moose [6:13 PM]
    I wish I was gifted in terms of drawing or computer programming, sadly I just give money and business advice

    billy [6:19 PM]
    @enijar oops i lied, that's back on my PC and im at DreamHack. it's built on an over-simplified 2d array anywya

    trogdor [6:44 PM]
    I'm looking to start some work on the PVE design

    Where are we listing our content? A design doc would be great, or also some people do a wiki instead

    billy [7:05 PM]
    Everything will be centered on the todoist I added you to - feel free to attach any docs to their relevant listings

    meletus [7:15 PM]
    Sorry attempted to login via phone.. Huge mistake can't get here to post only would allow me to edit my profile and of course the app is garbage, so uninstalled that right away. So regarding the pngs, it exports with a background unless you go through each frame and change the alpha, so the default is with background hence the black. While the total file size in under a dozen or so MB, still talking about 10,000+ files. I'll combine into folders and then zip.

    govnik [7:55 PM]
    I like that board with camera angle changing can a 2D image replace the gray with the grid overlaying it?

    billy [11:48 PM]
    it's webGL, so yea! he probably just gave it a hex color texture for now

    @meletus are you using the android app? I haven't had any problems with it :O

    billy [11:57 PM]
    don't forget to throw him that ZIP if you haven't already

    ----- May 6th -----
    billy [12:02 AM]
    @govnik does the board art you created translate relatively well to this setup? @enijar can get you a better idea of what dimensions we need, or alternatively you can make a single sprite that we can paste on all of the tiles

    enijar [1:18 AM]
    Can you get the the biggest possible PNG size you have?

    Also here is an updated game map with new characters:

    fran2689 [6:15 AM]
    Good morning guys!

    meletus [7:54 AM]
    @billy: was trying on iphone.. didn't bother on android since I was just trying to return a comment. @enijar getting zip together now

    meletus [8:41 AM]
    uploaded and commented on a file
    Unit Sprites.rar
    Click to download
    1 Comment
    Frames for each unit moment/attack/defense

    enijar [12:06 PM]
    @meletus: Thanks for sending these through. I won't add them in just yet as I have to work on the unit movement

    billy [12:26 PM]
    @mel oh yeah ive heard bad things about iSlack

    morning @fran2689 !

    ill check that out in a bit enijar, you're moving so quickly!

    ----- May 7th -----
    brandon [10:08 AM]
    Morning all!

    trogdor [11:15 AM]
    Hi there

    Do we know if we're still including blocking? We could keep in line with the previous format or use a modified hit/miss system as seen in the FFTA series

    In line with that question, the turn based system can be based off of individual unit turns or player turns

    billy [12:06 PM]
    not a bigfan of RNG, so I axed it in my project and saled up health pools acordingly

    what do yall think?

    brandon [12:10 PM]
    What's our other option besides the original blocking system? I'm trying to phathom Tao without blocking lol

    trogdor [12:16 PM]
    Well there's the hit/miss % system found in games like FFTA

    We could use a simplified version of it

    Their system took many factors into account, such as unit class, equipment, and the base accuracy of the attack

    Of course they also included stat-affecting abilities, such as evasion and accuracy boost

    billy [12:20 PM]
    We should build it with the original blocking system to get a good prototype, and then iterate on it from there

    trogdor [8:47 PM]
    I've started a general design template with a few basic examples

    Here's a link

    To get a better idea of where to direct design concepts, I'd like to know if the goal is to remain closer to the original or to attempt to branch off in a new direction

    govnik [10:07 PM]
    blocking was a huge positive for TAO. In the end game you can't just see the right line, you had to judge the more likely to succeed line

    billy [10:32 PM]
    very true, it was crucial for positioning

    I think modern gamers aren't very fond of RNG though

    we could turn it into percentage-based, guaranteed damage reduction from certain sides - would that work?

    and we could make new units that take less damage from the back or sides, to suit their armor/shape

    ----- May 8th -----
    trogdor [7:02 AM]
    I like that idea. As a base I'll start it at 50% from the front and 25% from the sides, and then armor can be used to balance individual units as you mentioned

    moose [7:37 AM]
    I think in general every unit should be closer to par

    And also add I. The chance for magical attack blocking

    I always found that element would have made the game more interested

  3. #13


    govnik [10:33 AM]
    I disagree with all of this. Blocking isn't Armor. Blocking is what made this game. Without blocking you can derive a perfect path to victory. Blocking changes that. Making blocking just a randomized armor would make planning moves much more frustrating than blocking, especially when utilizing units that deal damage to multiples.

    billy [10:42 AM]
    Blocking was already essentially a randomized armor; it effectively reduced damage taken from specific sides by a certain amount. But that amount was decided by a random number, instead of skill. My suggestion was, though I worded it poorly, to change an 80% block chance to an 80% damage reduction, and so on.

    I do agree that the fluctuation of block % based on whether or not blocks occurred was an awesome system, that I didn't really translate into my idea. We plan to recreate the 1.0 blocking first, and see how certain adjustments to it affect the game.

    moose [11:49 AM]
    Well we would have to tweak it so that it couldn't be figured out like in Tao

    billy [11:51 AM]
    How was it figured out?

    govnik [12:25 PM]
    if a knight with 80% blocking blocked, it got -20% which moved closer to 0% each turn. Repetitive long shots worked blocking down. Blocking wasn't that random. It did force people to take different strategies though.

    enijar [12:35 PM]
    Hi all

    billy [12:44 PM]
    I like that seed was really transparent about his pseudoRNG, but I think we should at least give rng-less design a shot once the original system is implemented. If it's not fun pr we can't make it work, we'll revert it.

    ----- Today May 10th, 2016 -----
    enijar [11:56 AM]
    Does anyone have the unit attack damage calculation?

    Is it this?

    Math.round(power - (power / 100) * armor) (edited)

    billy [12:03 PM]
    I'd look around at, I think BR had a calculator

    That's the calculation for sure but im not sure if it ceils or floors

    enijar [12:04 PM]
    Ah yes of source


    I think that is the algorithm though

    I'll just confirm it

    Also found this

    billy [12:05 PM]

    that's fantastic, i also manually scraped those stats from the game if the wiki goes doen

    enijar [12:06 PM]
    Yep my algorithm works like a charm :simple_smile:

    Time to implement

    billy [12:07 PM]

    enijar [12:17 PM]
    Would someone mind testing for me, just to confirm it's correct whilst I continue development?
    Edit fiddle - JSFiddle
    Test your JavaScript, CSS, HTML or CoffeeScript online with JSFiddle code editor.

  4. #14


    If you want to post something to that group I can copy paste what you write over there as well, but I too think just discussing here would be better.

  5. #15


    Yeah I don't fully understand the benefit of dividing our efforts.

  6. #16


    I would like them to talk about game mechanics on this forum. They can talk about the back end and stuff in more secure way. But they are missing out on talking to more of the community by talking about how the game should look and play when they do it on slack.

  7. #17


    Hey guys!

    My name is Billy, and I'm running the efforts to resuscitate - and improve upon - the original TAO that we all know and love.

    Thanks for all the feedback - i'm reading all of it. The main reason I created the slack was that forums - and facebook groups - are not a great medium for collaborative game development. There needs to be immediate, streamlined communication for all of the teams involved.

    Forums are designed to facilitate asynchronous discussions - discussions that can be paused and resumed at any time by all parties. Asynchronous discussions are fantastic for normal socialization and feedback, which is a large portion of what the slack will be doing. However, this type of structure is not conducive to the actual development of the game. Slack allows us to facilitate those asynchronous discussions, but also allows for an instant-message conversation if one is required. it also allows us to centralize all of our files, and split everyone into their respective teams. We don't need everyone and their mother receiving links to a build of the game that is not ready for more than 2 people to access at one time.

    Those are my two cents on why I decided to condense the conversation to a Slack channel. I'm open to feedback on that decision, so feel free to argue your points. I'm totally down to keeping this forum active as a medium for feedback, brainstorming or bug reports. But we can't use this forum to discuss the actual development of the game - at the very best, we could post occasional status updates to keep you guys in the loop. But I strongly recommend you join us on Slack if you'd like to keep updated on our progress in real time.

  8. #18
    Poop Slinger DivineLeft's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Near Chicago


    I see no benefit of slack over here or facebook groups for that matter... Just another place to login and catch up on conversations.. I can subscribe to threads here and get an email or text that lets me know when a thread I'm following is updated. I have no idea conversations are taking place on slack and there are no open times for those conversations planned or posted.. On facebook you can start a group chat, invite several people and can have open and ongoing conversations.. Something the admins here have been doing since before the forum closed..

    In the next few days I'll be installing a chat system here that will also allow for individual room set-ups for direct conversation.

    We could also easily add a section on this forum for future tao development that requires a logon to continue reading. I'm currently going between 8 mediums trying to keep track of the success and upkeep of these forums and the future TAO. While I'm glad you have taken an initiative and made a questionnaire and get the slack page going, but trying to figure out what for..

    I'll ask the same questions i did in my last slack post.. What is the direction you see the future of TAO? You mentioned in your reply that you see it as 3D game and the current board in webgl is rotatable. I guess with several people all looking for answers and questioning whats in going on.. perhaps at least outline the goals and posting progress would at least be in the best interest. The community is what kept this game around, if the goal is to market to them again perhaps outline goals and explaining a direction would be a good start. Timeline always changes but at least include them.

    As a designer I know we all have our ways of following things and organizing. I just want to actually see organization and an outline of planned ideas. Again on slack you mentioned tonight you would update.. I guess I'll randomly hop on there again later tonight and see what is added.

  9. #19
    Exist xyxaxyz2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003


    Not even being able to agree on where to have our discussions isn't a great sign.

    Can you at least post some basics here so we can see how serious you are? I don't think we ever talked before TAO died so I don't know anything about you. It doesn't look from the slack chat that much has been done so far. What skills and experience do you have? Do you have a team yet?

  10. #20


    Quote Originally Posted by DivineLeft View Post
    As a designer I know we all have our ways of following things and organizing. I just want to actually see organization and an outline of planned ideas. Again on slack you mentioned tonight you would update.. I guess I'll randomly hop on there again later tonight and see what is added.
    Totally down to try an embedded IRC channel or something similar. Slack is just a swanky version of IRC with app integration.

    I need to build the teams before I start building timelines, I think. I have a basic checklist laid out in another project management app, but it seems you guys don't like having new pages to follow. It's not that helpful yet anyways, it's mostly for my own guidance.

    Trogdor was kind enough to start work on a game design document, which you can find here:

    Would love your input on the timeline as I flesh it out! I'll post more information here as we make progress, until your afore-mentioned embedded system is up and running.

    Quote Originally Posted by xyxaxyz2 View Post
    Not even being able to agree on where to have our discussions isn't a great sign.

    Can you at least post some basics here so we can see how serious you are? I don't think we ever talked before TAO died so I don't know anything about you. It doesn't look from the slack chat that much has been done so far. What skills and experience do you have? Do you have a team yet?
    I only ever lurked on TAO, really. I'm a Project Manager at a software company, and I built a functional but ugly version of TAO in Unreal Engine about a year ago for a school project. I intend to serve as a project manager and creative director for a new version of TAO.

    Here's some resources that might give you a better idea of my background with the game:
    • The WIP Kickstarter project for my port of the game (with screenshots & gifs):
    • My pitch presentation for a physical version of the game:
    • An alpha build of my game is currently packaging. It's completely offline, but you can play with an opponent via remote desktop. Bound to be buggy as all hell. I'll link you to a .zip file once it's done. I removed blocking and added a unit or two of my own design, per requirements of the project.

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