For NBA fans

[Spencer 555]

No that was demar. Lowry will likely still sign with toronto, but he would be a really good fit in philly.

Honestly would hate to see lowry anywhere but philly or toronto.

Im still gushing from what I saw last night though. This team fully healthy is actually so damn balanced and scary. I dont even know if id prefer boogie over jv at this point (on JVs amazingly good contract)

[Da Gyps]

Great to see Embiid finally playing again.

[Spencer 555]

Damn, great game tn by the raps. The cavs are amazing lol. Lebron looked like he played the whole game other then the last 2 minutes at 50%

[I'malive]

Anthony Davis is the fucking truth, he may not be able to beat the Warriors without any help whatsoever but he came pretty close..although I will say this Tim Frazier kid looks pretty good for someone who spent all last year in the d league.

[Greendaybum5]

Anthony Davis is the fucking truth, he may not be able to beat the Warriors without any help whatsoever but he came pretty close..although I will say this Tim Frazier kid looks pretty good for someone who spent all last year in the d league.

Why did the sixers get rid of him lol

[Spencer 555]

Cant own every d league all star philly lol

[Greendaybum5]

Cant own every d league all star philly lol

hahaha but he's panning out! he actually sucked while on sixers though

[evan]

Just saw the Dubs in action last night at the Moda Center in Portland. Super impressive. Zers looked sloppy. You know it's a bad night when Jake Layman drops 17.

[Spencer 555]

hahaha but he's panning out! he actually sucked while on sixers though

Hard for any player to figure out his role in that system. Wont get better there till embiid, saric and simmons get together and start leading the team.

Simmons point fw ala magic johnson
2guards
Saric at PF
Embiid at centre

Covington and Noel or Okafor (whoever stays) coming off the bench.

Seems like the blueprint is there for a really solid team, just missing a couple point guards and or shooting guards.

[Sanosuke]

I love watching the Oklahoma City Westbrooks.

Also Spurs are going to be very very good once they get rid of Parker and Marky boy

[Spencer 555]

Its like the rest of okc is trying to lose and westbrook is just completely carrying them. If the Celtics or Bulls get westbrook, im gonna be pissed lol

[Spencer 555]

Westbrook + Kyrie + Lebron + TT + some random sf or pf that can shoot?

[Spencer 555]

Worst thing about basketball right now is that they cant play every day like baseball.

Pretty amazed at how poorly Durant is meshing with steph. The combination of klay and iggy playing poorly defensively (so far) and zaza being a big downgrade defensively to bogut is really exposing how bad steph is on defense. I think Durant is playing great ball, but I think he's gonna have to really buy in defensively and take a back seat to the curry show if this team is gonna be as elite as we thought.

[Greendaybum5]

Embid swats LeBron 3 times and goes 4/4 from 3pt land. Oh man can't wait for Simmons to come back. The process is finally starting to show form!

[Spencer 555]

I need NBA league pass. I just wanna watch all the basketball. Minny, philly, utah and the raps.

[Spencer 555]

Been sayin it awhile now, but I think Utah is finally gonna get into the playoffs this year

[Sanosuke]

Man. Wiggins always looks so disinterested on constantly scoring on everyone ever.

[Spencer 555]

Man. Wiggins always looks so disinterested on constantly scoring on everyone ever.

Yeeeesssss deandrew dewiggins? :p

[Serge]

So 1/8 of the way through the season here is your offical Washington Wizards Update from Serge:

We fucking suck.

[Spencer 555]

Shame really. Beal is a real punk.

[Spencer 555]

Fucking worst call ive ever ever seen or heard of in any sporting event just happend to end the raptors game. Let me know if you've seen worse cause goddamn that was stupid. Im pisssssed.

[KBHoleN1]

Fucking worst call ive ever ever seen or heard of in any sporting event just happend to end the raptors game. Let me know if you've seen worse cause goddamn that was stupid. Im pisssssed.

I know you're a fan and you're bound to disagree, but I just went and watched the video and it seems like the right call. Cousins tipped the ball on the inbound, so the clock should have started then. By the time Ross retrieves the ball and turns to face the basket, the game is over. This isn't the first time in history a play like this has happened, and the referees reviewed the timing and the got the call right. Sorry.

[Spencer 555]

Never seen anything like that before.

[Sanosuke]

Fucking worst call ive ever ever seen or heard of in any sporting event just happend to end the raptors game. Let me know if you've seen worse cause goddamn that was stupid. Im pisssssed.


I know you're a fan and you're bound to disagree, but I just went and watched the video and it seems like the right call. Cousins tipped the ball on the inbound, so the clock should have started then. By the time Ross retrieves the ball and turns to face the basket, the game is over. This isn't the first time in history a play like this has happened, and the referees reviewed the timing and the got the call right. Sorry.

Memories of the Braves infield fly rule KB. :(

[The One]

I can't wait for Warriors vs Cavaliers on Christmas Day. Draymond Green's revenge game.

[Spencer 555]

Oh man, christmas day basketball needs to become a tradition at my house lol

[Spencer 555]

Sixers aquire: Cory Joseph and raptors 1st rnd pick whenever

Kings aquire: Jonas Valanciunas, Terrence Ross and raptors 2nd rnd pick whenever

Raptors aquire: Demarcus Cousins, Omri Casspi, Nerlens Noel

Works on paper, think it's possible?

[Spencer 555]

Pg: lowry, Vanvleet, Wright (ir)
SG: demar, norm
Sf: carroll, caspi
Pf: Sullinger, 2pat, Siakam
C: Cousins, Noel, Bebe, Poeltl

Would be tempted to say the raps would be on par with the cavs if this happens.

[Sanosuke]

I love you Westbrook.

[Sanosuke]

I can't wait for Warriors vs Cavaliers on Christmas Day. Draymond Green's revenge game.

Revenge only works if it's in a series. Regular season games don't matter to GSW or CLE.

[Spencer 555]

Aint gonna happen, raps are gettin boogie and were gonna go straight to the finals and teach gsw how to rebound.

[Sanosuke]

If the raptors go to the finals, I'll wear a canadian shirt for a week.

[Spencer 555]

A red shirt with a maple leaf + pics?

[Sanosuke]

yes

[Spencer 555]

Awesome ill do the same, but only if ur hawks beat my raps out of the playoffs. I think thats about equally likely to happen.. sound fair?

[Lex]

Awesome ill do the same, but only if ur hawks beat my raps out of the playoffs. I think thats about equally likely to happen.. sound fair?

ATL is more likely to miss the playoffs than beat the raptors.

[Spencer 555]

After last nights game? Lol maybe. Im still pretty confident in budenholzer to get them the 7th seed. Roster is too talented not to make the playoffs. They should still have a top 5 defense with milsap on the floor and a top 20ish offence if they figure out how to play with schroder and howard.

[Spencer 555]

I think any injury will probably really hurt them though, they cant really replace anyone in that starting lineup.

[Sanosuke]

Awesome ill do the same, but only if ur hawks beat my raps out of the playoffs. I think thats about equally likely to happen.. sound fair?

Hawks probably aren't making the playoffs. I think you should just wear all american shit if the raptors don't go to the finals.

[Spencer 555]

Thats like making a bet on a knight frontal -_-

[Spencer 555]

Well the raps lost this game tn, but the refs didnt help. Raps vs cavs+refs at home. The NBA is so stupid sometimes.

[Spencer 555]

And yes I know the raps didnt play well tn, but ya this was ugly as hell. Refs ruined the game with all the bad calls.

[The One]

Klay Thompson dropped his dick on the Pacers tonight. 60 points in three quarters...good lord.

[Spencer 555]

Reaaaaaaallllllllyyyyy hoping masai can spin a blockbuster at the deadline for boogie. Honestly the only trade I actually see helping this team make it to the next step. Without boogie, the raps are tier 1.5.

[Spencer 555]

Raptors vs Cavs with this lineup who wins?

Raps:

PG: Lowry/Joseph/Vanvleet
SG: Derozan/Powell
SF: Carroll/Caspi
PF: Sullinger/Siakam (pending on who fits better with boogie), Patterson/Caboclo
C: Cousins/Bebe (who has actually been a major bench piece this year)/ Poeltl

Vs

Cavs:

PG: Kyrie/Mowilliams/Kay Felder
SG: Smith/Shumpert/Liggins/Mcrae
SF: LBJ/Dunleavy/Jefferson
PF: Love/Frye
C: Thompson/Anderson

I honestly would hesitate to take the king on paper, the raps would have way more depth and a big three that could at least hang while LBJ was on the court. I really dont see any viableish trades for any other player that would make the raptors this good. Milsap would be awesome, but it would be much harder to think about trading JV and banking on sully at the 5 to win the east.

[The Professor]

Clippers vs. Warriors tonight. Should be a great game. Hoping the Clippers can win so SA has a shot at the one seed.

[Greendaybum5]

Raptors vs Cavs with this lineup who wins?

Raps:

PG: Lowry/Joseph/Vanvleet
SG: Derozan/Powell
SF: Carroll/Caspi
PF: Sullinger/Siakam (pending on who fits better with boogie), Patterson/Caboclo
C: Cousins/Bebe (who has actually been a major bench piece this year)/ Poeltl

Vs

Cavs:

PG: Kyrie/Mowilliams/Kay Felder
SG: Smith/Shumpert/Liggins/Mcrae
SF: LBJ/Dunleavy/Jefferson
PF: Love/Frye
C: Thompson/Anderson

I honestly would hesitate to take the king on paper, the raps would have way more depth and a big three that could at least hang while LBJ was on the court. I really dont see any viableish trades for any other player that would make the raptors this good. Milsap would be awesome, but it would be much harder to think about trading JV and banking on sully at the 5 to win the east.

The trade you proposed a few pages back would be accepted by sixers in a heartbeat. The kings would turn that down 10/10 times though.


Clippers vs. Warriors tonight. Should be a great game. Hoping the Clippers can win so SA has a shot at the one seed.

Can't wait for tip-off. I can't believe how well GS has meshed. That being said I still think Cavs win it all.

[The One]

Warriors made the Clippers look like a D League team tonight lol. I love our chances against the Cavaliers this time around. Warriors only getting better as the season progresses.

[Spencer 555]

Ya the gsw defense is actually looking like a strength with durant at pf (as I predicted) only way to beat them is to limit transition points, slow them down and outrebound them.

[The Professor]

Blake Griffin had a terrible game. Multiple turnovers, wasn't aggressive, and lackadaisical defense. I think it's been awhile since he saw a defense that athletic and super quick. With GS limiting Paul, it was up to Griffin and he couldn't get it done.

[Spencer 555]

@philly I dunno man, jonas and terrence would be 2 young and controllable assets for the kings. I dont see them getting a much better deal then that. Depends on what you think about giving those two a chance to lead a team instead of bein behind lowry and demar. Ross' trade value has to be it's highest ever right now.

[Sanosuke]

Blake Griffin had a terrible game. Multiple turnovers, wasn't aggressive, and lackadaisical defense. I think it's been awhile since he saw a defense that athletic and super quick. With GS limiting Paul, it was up to Griffin and he couldn't get it done.

Griffin is really the lynchpin for that team's success. Jordan and Paul will always play at a high level. Griffin just isn't consistent and relies too heavily on the midrange 2 which is the worst shot valuewise for anyone to take.

[Maverik]

Griffin also sucks, so that's a factor.

[Spencer 555]

@philly dont see any team making a better package then that unless the kings just really wanna tank and boston is willing to move jaylen brown and marcus smart + picks.

[Sanosuke]

the better the raptors play the even more less likely your crazy ass trade will happen

[Spencer 555]

That makes no sense lol. If jonas and ross play well youd expect them to be worth more..

[Sanosuke]

No, because people aren't dumb. They aren't going to pay extra for what they can probably get through the draft.

[Spencer 555]

Ok so one your assuming sacramento isnt dumb and two you think two young nba rotation players on very good long term contracts is replaceable through the draft?

There is a pretty big benefit to having players like ross and valanciunas locked up during a rebuild because they could potentially be peaking when and if sacramento cashes in on the process. With boogie on that team sacramento isnt getting a top 5 pick. With valanciunas and ross, you can tank with players who you know are already solid nba contributors and build a winning culture around them.

You can easily make a case for trading boogie for real nba ready depth and picks or you can go full "trust the process" mode with boston and aquire jaylen + picks imo. Dont see any other team with enough assets to aquire boogie, but sacramento would be dumb to keep him beyond this year imo.

[Sanosuke]

Your problem is that you over value your team's players.

[The Butcher]

Your problem is that you over value your team's players.

there's a word for that....

[Spencer 555]

Maybe I just dont understand basketball markets like I do baseball markets, but I think I made a fair case as to why a team might value our young pieces. The raptors have the best nba ready depth in the NBA right now and its not even close. I can understand people arguing why boston or another team has more resources to trade for boogie, but you cant argue that jonas and ross arent significantly valuable pieces. Both are young, on cap friendly deals, and both have shown signs that they would benefit from having larger roles. Jonas especially.

As far as me being a homer is concerned, I think you know me well enough by now or at least have read enough of my posts in these sports threads (sano) to know im a fan of the sports before teams. I may have a small bias for the raptors right now because they dont get enough love from you guys (lowry 〉kyrie）, but I can recall two years ago in the alcs against the royals saying that the royals were a better team when everyone was saying toronto was a juggernaut. Homers dont make those kinds of comments. I would invite you to engage my comment with a more challenging argument then spence you're overvaluing your players but if you really think im just a crazy homer I guess thats cool too.

[Spencer 555]

And just like that Ross goes off for 24 points in 13 minutes while JV gets the big double double.

[Spencer 555]

Is giannis a top ten player in the league right now? Only reason the bucks didnt just lose by 50 is because of his work on the glass and as the ball handler.

If hes a top ten player right now and he doesnt even have a jumpshot... thats scary as hell lol.

My top ten currently:

Lebron
Durant
Curry
Kawhi
Westbrook
Harden
Paul
Davis
Cousins
Giannis

[Sanosuke]

If your team is so great and has amazing nba depth then why even make a case to trade them lol. People aren't going to trade for role players that get hot unless their name is Jamaal Crawford

[Spencer 555]

If your team is so great and has amazing nba depth then why even make a case to trade them lol. People aren't going to trade for role players that get hot unless their name is Jamaal Crawford

I dont mean depth as in shitty bench players that are past their prime sano (crawdaddy hasnt been good since 2014). I mean depth as in we have a guy who doesnt play (norm powell) who would likely start on most teams.

[KBHoleN1]

Is giannis a top ten player in the league right now? Only reason the bucks didnt just lose by 50 is because of his work on the glass and as the ball handler.

If hes a top ten player right now and he doesnt even have a jumpshot... thats scary as hell lol.

My top ten currently:

Lebron
Durant
Curry
Kawhi
Westbrook
Harden
Paul
Davis
Cousins
Giannis

Hold on just a second. You're arguing that 10 out of the top 11 PER leaders are your ten best players as of this moment. I don't know dude, that seems a little crazy.

[Spencer 555]

Hold on just a second. You're arguing that 10 out of the top 11 PER leaders are your ten best players as of this moment. I don't know dude, that seems a little crazy.

Lmfao! I didnt even look at per for that. I just spewed that out of my large brain.

[Spencer 555]

11 would have been blake for me btw, do I win?

[Sanosuke]

I dont mean depth as in shitty bench players that are past their prime sano (crawdaddy hasnt been good since 2014). I mean depth as in we have a guy who doesnt play (norm powell) who would likely start on most teams.

Jamal Crawford literally won sixth man of the year last season.

Why would you give up a guy who is talented enough to start that comes off the bench? I don't think you understand the value in that

[The Professor]

Maybe I just dont understand basketball markets like I do baseball markets, but I think I made a fair case as to why a team might value our young pieces. The raptors have the best nba ready depth in the NBA right now and its not even close. I can understand people arguing why boston or another team has more resources to trade for boogie, but you cant argue that jonas and ross arent significantly valuable pieces. Both are young, on cap friendly deals, and both have shown signs that they would benefit from having larger roles. Jonas especially.

As far as me being a homer is concerned, I think you know me well enough by now or at least have read enough of my posts in these sports threads (sano) to know im a fan of the sports before teams. I may have a small bias for the raptors right now because they dont get enough love from you guys (lowry 〉kyrie）, but I can recall two years ago in the alcs against the royals saying that the royals were a better team when everyone was saying toronto was a juggernaut. Homers dont make those kinds of comments. I would invite you to engage my comment with a more challenging argument then spence you're overvaluing your players but if you really think im just a crazy homer I guess thats cool too.

Ross and JV are nice, but they aren't center pieces, especially since both are about to be getting paid. Also, unless things change dramatically their ceiling isn't as high as you think. They look nice now with Demar and Lowry, but they arent even good enough for second star status.

Also, both have been incredibly inconsistent, especially for star status. You really think JV is worth 100+ million? Because that's what it is going to take.

One other thing, a true NBA superstar is worth a tremendous amount. Boogie is a superstar. Yes he's a bit of a knucklehead and his teams have been bad, but i believe that's more of a product of a terrible organization than Boogie. No team should ever move a superstar unless they feel he won't re-sign.

[KBHoleN1]

11 would have been blake for me btw, do I win?

Naw, Jimmy Butler is 7th and Curry is 11th.

[Spencer 555]

Ya id probably have jimmy behind draymond and maybe marc gasol, the teens get harder.

@sano 6th man of the year is a pretty bs award that goes to the bench player who has the highest ppg total. Crawford is a net neutral offensively and awful defensively. The clips bench as a whole is one of the worst in the league and he doesnt help.

[Spencer 555]

Ross and JV are nice, but they aren't center pieces, especially since both are about to be getting paid. Also, unless things change dramatically their ceiling isn't as high as you think. They look nice now with Demar and Lowry, but they arent even good enough for second star status.

Also, both have been incredibly inconsistent, especially for star status. You really think JV is worth 100+ million? Because that's what it is going to take.

One other thing, a true NBA superstar is worth a tremendous amount. Boogie is a superstar. Yes he's a bit of a knucklehead and his teams have been bad, but i believe that's more of a product of a terrible organization than Boogie. No team should ever move a superstar unless they feel he won't re-sign.

JV already got paid dude. Hes locked up for 4 years at 15 mill ish per. And I know you're not necessarily gonna be as high on JV or Ross as I am, but I think JV is held back pretty hard in this raps system. The raps offense is very guard oriented and JV is a finnesse big, he doesnt thrive at all and his development is stunted. I think in the right scenario JV could become an offensive focal point. He obviously isnt Marc Gasol at this point, but he's as u said a serviceable starter on a tier 2 team with some upside and he's 24 on a good long term deal.

As for ross, I cant deny that he has benefitted tremendously from the fact that the raps system has been good to him. His strength has always been his shooting ability and hes been able to camp on the outside while dero and lowry did the real work for years. My argument for him is that Ross is finally showing a willingness to drive to the rim and create shots for himself. His inconsistencies on both sides of the court this year have been virtually gone (or at least hugely improved upon) all year and Ive watched every game so far. I think if given a chance to be "the guy" he could flourish. Personally think hes just a reaaaaallly good role player, but he's legitimately making ME question that and Ive been out on Ross since the wizards series 2 years ago. End of the day, even if he doesnt pan out as a #1 option for a basement team, he's on a 3 year 30million dollar contract when guys who arent much better then him (lookin at you harrison barnes) are gettin max contracts.

To be clear, I think JV has a higher floor of the two and Ross has the higher ceiling at this point. Ross has shown enough skills this year that he could potentially be a #1 option on a bad team right now. JV on the other hand, I think, has an outside chance at developing a 3 point shot and a passing game. Dont think marc gasol is realistic defensively at this point, but his offensive game has plenty of room to develop.

[The Professor]

Ah you're right, he signed his extension before last season started. Pretty good deal for the Raps as he would have gone above 100 mil this year. He's worth that price, but that's hardly superstar material. He can't really create his own offense and while he's alright defensively. He's averaging 12/9/1. 12 points and only 9 rebounds on the #1 offense. Only averages 1 assist with said offense. Not only is he not even close to a #1 option, he doesn't even make others better.

Ross? He had a tantalizing rookie year where he showed flashes and has been incredibly inconsistent since then. Other than that, he can score from time to time but for a "dangerous wing" he doesn't even create for others. Harrison Barnes may be vastly overpaid but he is definitely better than Ross and it's not close.

[Spencer 555]

Agree with you 100% on jonas, but I think hed be more like a 15-10 guy on a different team that actually featured him in the offense. The ceiling on him at this point isnt what we were hoping for, but he has a very underutilized faceup game that he could develop somewhere else and maybe be a real 3rd option for a good team.

Ross again I agree with u 100% prior to this year. His game has taken a massive leap. Hes clearly behind Derozan right now, but he looks a lot like a better version of demar when demar was ross' age. Ross has really cut down on the inconsistencies in his game and im really hopeful. As of right now, I personally still think ross is a role player/bench guy, but if teams are paying attention as close as I am (and they are) it wouldnt surprise me if someone out there would want to give ross a chance. And I dont deny barnes is better then Ross, but Ross can actually create for himself and has a better shot. Sky is the limit for him if he puts in the work. So far this season its hard not to believe in him a little.

And for the record, Im super mega high on norm powell lol the dude is a cold blooded killer.

[Spencer 555]

Bored at work. Ranking my next ten.

Blake
Green
Marc Gasol
Butler
Kloe!
Milsap
Lillard
Drummond
Towns
Kyrie

[Spencer 555]

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2016/12/13/terrence-ross-finding-balance-takes-long-awaited-next-step/

Good read on ross' breakout.

[Spencer 555]

Bored at work. Ranking my next ten.

Blake
Green
Marc Gasol
Butler
Kloe!
Milsap
Lillard
Drummond
Towns
Kyrie

Next ten cause im bored again!

PG13 (probably should be in front of someone ahead but not sure who)
Horford
Klay Thompson
Gobert
Jordan
Mccollum
Derozan
Porzingis
Anthony
Wade

[The Professor]

Paul George is definitely better than Butler. Doesn't get enough shine being on a disjointed (roster wise) Pacers team, but he's a better defender and much more polished offensively. Butler is close, but I'd take George every time.

Draymond is maybe a top 15 player on the Warriors, but he wouldn't even be top 30 outside of them. Defensively he's great, but offensively he's terrible.

His second strength is playmaking/passing which wouldn't be as pronounced on another team. The Warriors offense relies on threat of shooting; teams have to hug them or risk open shots to the best shooting team. As such, with patience and good direction, GS is able to make decisive cuts which lead to easy baskets from a great passer.

While he is a good passer, if Draymond was the #1 offensive option on a team (which should be part of the criteria as a top player) his passing game would suffer. He can't create his own offense whatsoever and he's still a so-so shooter with WIDE OPEN shots. Imagine a higher percentage of shots contested and his efficiency would be even worse.

[Spencer 555]

Hes a rich man's paul milsap, and paul milsap is the lifeblood of a meh hawks team right now. Personally view Draymond as a glue guy as well, but you have to give the dude props for the elite level at which he plays his role. He is the best stretch big in the league by a wide margin, unless u consider some of the top ten guys and marc gasol lol. Im basing this list less on singular skill and more on player value. So ya Draymond may be a guy who needs other skilled players around him to work well, but he also boosts the skill of everyone around him and that's a skill I value highly and I think he is much more valuable in that sense then PG right now. PG (for me) isn't quite the player I thought he could be and im still waiting for him to prove he can really be a #1 scorer for the pacers. Him and Myles Turner, along with teague should definitely be challenging the raptors right now in the east, but they aren't even close and to me that says a lot. Butler and PG are much more comparable now then they should be considering how sweet PG's shot is and his size/athleticism advantage. There was a time where people laughed at comparing kawhi to PG, but Kawhi has surpassed him in every way other then ball handling and Jimmy is right their with him (PG).

That all being said, I think PG has the most talent of any player not in the top 10 so far (Jon Wall is comin up next and they are comparably elite talents). He might still be shaking off the injury rust.

[The Professor]

Yeah, I agreed Dray was great as a Warrior, but on another team he is nowhere near the same player. Millsap by comparison could play on multiple teams and have a similar impact.

Paul George...he just got a new coach and practically a brand new team, a team btw that makes no sense. Jeff Teague is a crappy shooter who needs the ball in his hands to be effective at all. Monta Ellis has lost a step and still isn't a great shooter (different than being a great scorer), and a huge sieve on defense. Myles Turner is a blossoming stud but just like KAT, who is better, is struggling to fulfill that potential under a new coach. Oh, and said coach is Nate McMillan, whose teams have always peaked at decent no matter the talent because he's not very creative. Yet George will be great enough to take them to the playoffs and give them a punchers chance to beat anybody just like he did last year against Toronto when they went the distance.

[Spencer 555]

Good points :p he did look like a total baller last year against us until norm powell shut his ass down lol. Im probably reading too much into the pacers being bad around him and him actually having talented players on his team. Turner looks like a beast and teague was an all star not long ago.

[Spencer 555]

30-39:

Wall
Aldridge
Love
Whiteside
Hayward
Bledsoe
Conley
Walker
Porzingis
Batum

[Spencer 555]

40-50 last list, next 50 aren't worth writing about lol. (I plan on making a massive tldr write up soon lol)

Isiah Thomas
Lopez
Howard
Beal
Ibaka
Dragic
Ariza
Pau pau
Crowder
Jokic
Turner

Special shoutouts: Victor Oladipo, Otto Porter Jr, Danillo Gallinari. Just missed the cut.

[Spencer 555]

Tier 1: The Gods

1. Lebron James Cavs: The king. This should be nuf said, but he truly is the best player weve seen since Jordan. He's a fantastic all around player who can completely dominate any game on both ends of the floor. He may not be the best offensive player in the game, but his awareness is unmatched and he may go down in history as the 2nd greatest player to ever play the game. I know cleveland has a big three, but they would be nothing without this guy, so him beating GSW in the finals last year was a defining moment for his NBA career. Ive been skeptical of putting him #1 on my list since the emergence of some other great players, but this is his spot until his game regresses due to age lol.

2. Kevin Durant GSW: The heir to the throne. Possibly the most versatile scorer weve ever seen in the game. A 7 foot guard (literally!) who has the defensive versatility to guard every position competently. He may not have the dominance of Lebron on the defensive end, but Durant's ability to score at will on anyone is truly amazing. The strides this dude is making on the defensive side of the ball this year in GS is really encouraging too. He has to be the frontrunner for MVP this year imo.

3. Steph Curry GSW: The best shooter of all time. He may also be one of the top 5 ball handlers of all time. The dude is just so completely lethal on the offensive end of the court that his defensive and athletic liabilities dont matter. Steph may be one of the worst 1 on 1 defenders in the league, but he's smart enough to play well in a good system and he sneakily is one of the better players in the league when it comes to getting steals.

4. Kawhi Leonard SAS: The Lebron killer. The best 1 on 1 wing defender in the game. He combines a very solid, intelligent game on offense with his suffocating defense. This dude may go down as the best wing defender since pippen with more offensive polish.

5. Russel Westbrook OKC: The little engine that could. Hes the duracell bunny. He just keeps going and going and going and never gets tired. He's basically doing to the league right now what a young MJ did back in the 80s. I truely believe if you took westbrook and kobe bryant and combined them in a machine you would have MJ. Hes insane on both ends of the court, and may be the most dominant player in the league when he's rested.

6. James Harden Houston: The nastiest player in the league right now. This dude is basically a star soccer forward. What I mean by that is to say that he's mastered the art of slipping through defenses and drawing contact. On top of that, this dude can pass with the best of em and shoot efficiently. His game is really unique and he's a 1 man show in houston, but the sky is the limit for that team when he is defensively engaged. If this dude had Westbrook's endurance he would be the best player ever. That being said, he uses up all of his energy on the offensive side of the ball and rarely hustles on the defensive end. This would be totally fine if he was surrounded by a good defense like steph curry is, but he's not, and so houston sucks on that end. Honestly think Harden is one of the best offensive players of all time even with the annoying flops.

7. Chris Paul Clippers: The point God. Chris may be the last of a dying breed. I compare his game to Gary Payton and Jason Kidd, but I honestly think he's better then both. Easily one of, if not the smartest player in the NBA right now, he just finds his teammates and sets them up for success in every situation. The dude may not be on a dominant level like the players on this list before him, but historically, he may go down as the best pure point guard of all time.

Tier 2: The Not Quite Gods.

8. Anthony Davis NOP: Davis, to me, is clearly the best of the rest right now. He is so young and so promising both offensively and defensively, but he is still trying to figure out his game. On top of that he is injury prone. Injuries have spoiled his last few seasons and he may have slowed down a bit in the process. This was once a player I would have had in my top 5 at 20 years old and he hasnt really improved his game since then. On the bright side, he is still the most athletic big man (not including the slim reaper) weve seen in the league since Kevin Garnett. Imagine a longer, equally athletic Kevin Garnett who could shoot 3s... thats what Davis can be in this league! Along with Giannis, he may be the only player in the league capable of getting a quadruple double (or cinco* double if u have any imagination). Best PF/C in the league fo sho.

9. Demarcus Cousins SAC: The Boogie man. Hes kinda stuck in this spot right now, and probably would have been #9 on my list the last couple years if not for the fact that ive never done this before. Thing about cousins, is he doesn't have as exciting a ceiling as any of the guys ranked ahead of him on this list, but that doesn't change the fact that he is a complete player and is actually improving. People underestimate how complete a player Boogie really is both offensively and defensively. His defense isn't amazing, but I think he is an underrated post defender with some lateral quickness. On the kings, I think he loses interest of playing defense at times, but when he's locked in he becomes a positive on both ends of the court. Bringing us to his offensive game.. which is just fantastic. He's a bulldog on the glass and in the post, he doesn't turn the ball over much, he can run the offense and pass high low, he's awesome. And now he shoots 3s consistently lol. I think he's essentially plateaued here, but you could make a case he is better then Davis right now. Definitely the best Pure center in the game (even though he isnt really a pure center)

10. Giannis Antetekounmpo MIL: (did I get that right?) The Greek Freak. There exists a dream scenario where Giannis becomes the best player in the league. He's surprisingly not that far off either. This dude is like a bigger, stronger, faster, Longer, more athletic Durant without the shot or the handle. He has the ability to play + Defense at every position, he can run the offense as a point guard, and he can post up bigs and still get his shot up. This dude has improved so much over the last few years it's pretty amazing. To see a 22 year old make LBJ look like his bitch was so cool. I dont know what the ceiling is for this guy, but the league has to be on watch at all times.

[Spencer 555]

Tier 3: The Elite Players

11. Blake Griffin clippers: He may not be a potential MVP candidate, but he might be the most important player on a team led by Chris Paul. Blake is the #1 scoring option on this team and he does so with a very polished mid range game. Though the mid range is a faux-pas in the league today, Blake is efficient enough to draw coverages and explosive/big enough to get down and dirty without the ball. Without a 3 point shot or elite rebounding skills, Blake isn't a mega star in this league, but he is a complete player regardless and a very solid defender. One of the most fun players to watch because of his dunking ability and tough shot making.

12. Draymond Green GSW: If Kawhi is the best 1 - 1 defender, this is the best system defender. This is not a very athletic player with a lot of skill, but Draymond mixes his bulk, lateral quickness, tenacity and ability to read defenses to become a dominant force on the defensive end. I think he should have won the defensive player of the year award last year, and I hope he wins it this year. On offense, he has good vision and benefits greatly from being surrounded by great players. His shot isn't horrible when he is wide open, and he is just quick enough to blow by the weak defenders that usually guard him. This is a role player, granted, but for what he does, he is extremely valuable.

13. Marc Gasol Grizz: One of my favourite players in the league right now. Leader of the grit n grind grizzlies, he is the last of the truly great finesse big men currently in the NBA. Gasol is not very athletic and is actually very slow on both ends of the court, but his basketball IQ is off the charts. The grizz run the offense through him as he is a fantastic passer from the high post and a very good spot up shooter. Add to that a solid post up game and even a 3 point shot this year and you've got the whole package on offense for a non freak of nature. On defense, he may have lost a step from the days where he won a defensive player of the year, but he is the anchor of one of the best defensive teams for the last decade. First white dude on the list too so that's always cool.

14. Jimmy Butler CHI: One of the hardest workers in the NBA, Jimmy took what was expected to be a horrible shot and raw offensive ability and turned himself into the #1 scorer on a team that features dwyane wade. Jimmy has always been a fantastic defender, potentially a top 5 1 - 1 wing defender in the league, but his offensive game has really improved to the point he is a borderline superstar in the league. I think the addition of Wade has helped Jimmy get to another level, and he may have plateaued here, but the bulls will be a playoff team because of him and in spite of having no outside shooting lol. We'll see if Wade can teach him how to get to the rim more creatively.

15: Kyle Lowry TOR: Kloe is essentially the boogie cousins of point guards. His game is so complete and polished and he's a mean motherfucker. The dude is a bulldog who knows how to step up when his team needs him and he makes so many sneaky hustle plays for the team that don't get tracked on the box score. Lowry may not be as talented as some of the PGs behind him, but unlike them, he defends his position as well as anyone and he has a much higher basketball IQ. The leader of an elite team in the NBA, Kyle has proven time and time again that he deserves to be considered one of the best at his position. Reminds me of Chauncey Billups.

16. Paul Milsap ATL: Much like Draymond Green, this is a role player. Milsap is a swiss army knife that can do everything on defense for his team and is very competent on offense as well. Though Milsap is smaller then draymond and lacks the rebounding tenacity, he is a better 1 - 1 defender on the wing and equally good in the post. On top of that, the hawks appear to be trash without him on the court and a pretty scary playoff team with him. Its amazing how much influence stretch 4s are having on our game.

Tier 4: The Flawed All Stars

17. Damien Lillard POR: This is steph curry light. He's basically only held back by his system and coaches. I imagine if both he and switched teams, I would have to swap these two ranks. That being said, steph is the real deal and lillard honestly pales in comparison on both ends of the court. One of the most exciting players to watch as he and cj play heroball and the rest of the team watches in awe. I hate portland btw lol.

18. Andre Drummond DET: May be the best rebounder in the league, but his offensive game is very flawed on a team that needs him to score. Though he has the size and explosiveness to be one of the best in the league, he doesnt have the intensity on either end of the court to be in that next tier. His inconsistency may be the only thing holding him back though.

19. Karl Anthony-Towns MIN: Probably the most exciting young player drafted in the last two years along with Kristaps and Simmons, KAT is an incredible talent. Hes a work in progress as of yet and honestly hasnt shown the big step I expected from him this year, but even so he is still one of the best players in the league. If he can put together his raw offensive and defensive games, he has Anthony Davis esque potential.

20. Kyrie Irving CLE: To me, this is Damian Lillard light. Blessed with a silky smooth shot and awesome handles, but not as much offensive or defensive awareness as his two top comparables. He is essentially a premium, elite scorer who may be a worse defender 1 - 1 then steph and he doesn't have the IQ to get steals. That being said, its hard to leave him out of the top 20 knowing he would school pretty much anyone 1v1. If not for Lebron, Irving would be a disappointment on a bad team.

[Spencer 555]

21. Paul George IND: Probably should be in the complete player tier, George is a stud wing defender with size enough to defend 4 positions at an elite level. That being said, I really was hoping George would consider the 4 and use bird as a mentor as I consider Bird to be a top 5 player all time. George has a very pretty shot and has proven he can run the offense in indiana, but I think he would be more valuable to the pacers in a kawhi esque role where he focuses on defending and is a massive off ball threat on offense. George's career path has been pretty frustrating for me.

22. Al Horford BOS: Another complete player both on offense and defense, but certainly not as dominant as the guys in the tier above him. He's got a very solid old man's game, but lacks the lateral quickness to be milsap/draymond at PF and lacks the size/length to be boogie/gasol at C. As much as the whole tweener thing is becoming a good thing in our league today, Horford is flawed in the sense that he is a true tweener. His passing is pretty underrated too.

23. Klay Thompson GSW: Would have been near the top of tier 3 last year, but his defense has taken a nose dive since bogut left. I think the combo of klay and bogut was probably what made him look so good defensively, but with no rim protection to cover for his mistakes, he is looking like a liability now on that end. That being said, this is a player we considered above average defensively last year who has a devastating offensive weapon (second best shooter in the league) and can create his own shot. I would love to see what klay looked like on another team. (4 gsw in the top 25...)

24-25 Rudy Gobert UTA and Deandre Jordan Clips: Was a tossup between Rudy and Jordan for 24 but I decided to go with the younger, more athletic and long Gobert. Both of these bigs are extremely athletic and can finish above the rim for exciting oops and dunks, but that being said, neither has any kind of post up game whatsoever and both have pretty shitty hands. They also both suck pretty badly at free throws... especially hackajordan lol. These two are perennial defensive players of the year though and are basically following in the footsteps of dwight howard at the center position. These players may be black holes offensively, but they more then make up for it with the highlight reel plays. Just dont ever let them hold the ball.

26-27 CJ Mccollum POR, Demar Derozan TOR: Again, two very similar players with similar flaws and talents. Decided to give the edge to CJ simply because he has a better handle and more range. Neither has the prettiest shot in the world, but both are elite scorers and can get to the basket at will. Demar is the #1 scoring option for an elite team, granted, but CJ being behind lillard doesn't make him any less lethal. The fundamental flaw for these two is the play on the defensive end. Both are athletically gifted players with some size, but neither can keep even weak offensive players in front of them.

28 Kristaps Porzingis NYK: The next Dirk? Second Whitey on this list, if not including mixed players, Porzingis is a raw 7'3 giant with some lateral quickness, deep 3 point range and a developing basketball IQ. You could make a case for kristaps to be even higher on this list already, but the inconsistency in his game on both ends of the court is a bit too much to be ranking him any higher then this. This is a guy who could defend boogie cousins in the post and then get posted up by Kyle Lowry the next game. Intriguing talent regardless, he is making the knicks watchable and he has a pretty good mentor playing along side the guy I ranked next.

29. Carmelo Anthony NYK: This dude is so damn clutch. Hes bulky, has lost a ton of athleticism, and doesn't always seem engaged, but anthony is still one of the best players in our league. The thing about anthony that always drove me nuts is the ball seems to stop at him when the play breaks down and he seems incapable most of the time to pass up the shot. He hits daggers at a higher % then probably anyone in the NBA right now, but that has always bothered me about his game. Other then that though, he's just a really solid and efficient player nowadays. He's become a decent defender at the 4 and is still quick and savvy enough to score whenever he wants on most defenders. HoFer

30. Dwyane Wade CHI: Pretty much the exact same situation as Anthony, but Anthony's old man game is slightly stronger because his game never really relied on athleticism. Wade still has the ability to turn back the clock when he wants to, but he has taken a back seat to the Butler show in chicago. It was a real pleasure getting to see Wade be the #1 option in the playoffs last year for miami, but that ship has sailed. You have to really respect this guy for taking a backseat in his prime for lebron and now has become a really amazing vet for young players. One of the best of all time.

31. Jon Wall WAS: Wall is essentially the most skilled pure point guard on this list not named chris paul, but he's killed by his inefficient shooting and poor attitude. I honestly dont understand how the wizards can be so terrible with the players they have on the team but they are. It essentially forced my hand in ranking Wall a bit behind lillard and kyrie even though I think he probably deserves a better ranking then them. Wall is an elite fascilitator and can score at the rim at will, his problem I think is he gets frustrated too easily with the inconsistent play of his teammates and starts heaving bad shots that he isn't capable of making. This is not a player who makes bad shots, and I think when he realises he is more of a #2 option his efficiency will imprive and so will his teammates. He needs to encourage beal to be the #1 guy like lowry did for derozan. Amazingly talented player regardless.

32-33 Lamarcus Aldridge SAS Kevin Love CLE: Coming into the year I probably would have ranked aldridge a little higher, but this dude just isn't the player I thought he was. Maybe it's because he's struggling to find his role on a team where pop is the star, but aldridge is having the worst year of his career after a promising start on the spurs last year. I think Love and Aldridge are pretty much the same player at this point. They are both talented enough to be #1 options on bad teams, but they are too flawed defensively and not dominant enough on offense to control a game. I would love to see if aldridge can handle the 5 defensively because I feel like he has regressed as a PF. To me, both are still extremely talented players, but I would rather Al Horford any day of the week. Tweeners.

Tier 5: The borderline allstars

33. Hassan Whiteside MIA: Similar to a young version of Dwight Howard. Almost as dominant too. But clearly has some demons and doesnt really understand his role in on an NBA team. He would be much better off if he just embraced his talents and accepted his offensive limitations like gobert and jordan, but whiteside (much like howard) seems to think he can develop a post up game and be shaq. I just dont see that happening and I think he has taken a step back defensively now that bosh and wade arent their to stop him from being dumb. The dude just wants to get 10 blocks a game and 20 points.

34. Gordon Hayward UTA: Pretty under the radar player in Utah, but one of the better players in the league. Should honestly probably be higher on this list, but I bumped him below some of the other SG who are clearly better then him offensively. Hayward is an unselfish, efficient scorer who plays solid defense. Nothing really elite about him, but he doesn't have any flaws either. He basically represents what this tier is about lol.

[Spencer 555]

35. Eric Bledsoe Suns: Basically a younger, more in shape Kyle Lowry without the range. Bledsoe, much like Hayward is just a really solid player who makes good plays. I would say Bledsoe also reminds me of Wall in the sense that when he gets frustrated he kills the team with poor shot choices. This is not a #1 option scorer, but he knows how to run an offense, defends his position well and makes a lot of hustle plays. I think his ceiling is a slightly better Kyle Lowry, but it's unlikely he'll ever develop that kind of deep 3 point range.

36. Mike Conley Griz: Also pretty similar player to Kyle Lowry in the sense that he is a solid pg who can defend his position and run the offense, but unlike lowry and bledsoe, conley really doesnt have the ability to impose his will on a game. Conley is just a very responsible solid pg with consistency.

37. Kemba Walker CHA: This is an emerging young(ish) pg who may be breaking out this year. I think Kemba has the scoring ability to become an all star #1 option in this league and he actually defends his position well, but he lacks consistency on a nightly basis. Kemba imo has the skillset to be a top 20 player.

38. Nic Batum CHA: Very similar player to Gordon Hayward, but less of a scorer and not as laterally quick as Hayward defensively. Batum is a swiss army knife who can do a lot for your team, both defensively and offensively on the wing, but he's pretty slow and has a hard time creating his own shot. On top of that his jumper can be inconsistent.

39. Isiah Thomas BOS: Actually could be an allstar this year, but his size and inability to defend 1 - 1 make him hard to rank higher then this. He is the #1 option on a pretty solid team, but I think he is better suited as the 6th man regardless. Rich man's lou williams/jamaal crawfors. I think he has plateaued.

40. Brook Lopez NETS: The second Finesse big on the board, Lopez is a pretty underrated player. Aside from his low motor, Lopez actually has an extremely high skillset. Good rebounder, good post defender, good rim protector and offensively he makes things happen. That being said he's surrounded by incompetence and sucks in the pick n roll. Hes soooo fuckin slow. I think this is JV's ceiling.

Tier 6: The really good players

41. Dwight Howard ATL: Really similar to Hassan whiteside as mentioned earlier. He may have become one of the all time great defensive players in the league if he didnt get so caught up in trying to improve his post up game. What a stupid waste of talent this guy is. Still one of the best bigs in the league at this point though.

42. Bradley Beal WAS: Much like his teammate, wall, Beal has elite talent and could move up the ranks of this list in a hurry. His career has been derailed by injuries though and I honestly feel like he and wall have chemistry issues. Beal really has the skillset to become a #1 option scorer for a great team and he can defend multiple positions well when he is engaged. Sky is the limit for this dude if he can ever get healthy and gain wall's respect.

43. Serge Ibaka ORL: Tweener big who has yet to be allowed to really prove himself as a centre. I believe if Ibaka was given a role more suited to his skillset (centre beside a stretchy 4) he could potentially dominate. This is a player being forced to play at PF and is not laterally quick enough anymore to keep up defensively on the perimeter but he is also a player with very good rim protecting skills and can guard most people in the post as well. Im thinking a light version of chris bosh with a higher defensive ceiling. That all being said, he is ranked here as a PF so he is a solid player in the league, he used to be much better though.

44. Goran Dragic MIA: Pretty unique, tall point guard. He doesn't have much athleticism, but he is creative enough to get to the rim and run an offense. His shot is pretty awful, but he remains an efficient scorer regardless. He's the last PG to make this list and their is a pretty big gap between him and the next I'd say.

45. Trevor Ariza HOU: The typical 3 and D player. Ariza has really stepped up his game this year. Big enough to switch onto 4s and quick enough to keep up with any wing, Ariza is an elite NBA defender. His offensive game is completely one dimensional though. He's essentially a rich man's JR smith.

46. Pau Gasol SAS: Pau is old as fuck and it shows, but he's savvy and big enough to still be a positive on the defensive end. An elite passer and post up player, Pau is also still a very solid contributor offensively. 5 years ago, this dude was severely underrated.

47. Jae Crowder BOS: Same as Ariza, but not quite as good defending the speedy little guys. Ariza is just better overall really. I think the only case Crowder can make is he's bigger and would make lebron james work.

48. Nikola Jokic DEN: Underrated rookie last year and being utilized poorly this year by the dumb nuggets coach. Jokic is another finesse big and probably the last wed see on a top 100 list for awhile. That being said, I think Jokic has extremely high potential. He has some lateral quickness for a big white dude and is a very smart defender as a 5. Furthermore, his offensive game is far from polished and yet the nuggets run a lot of plays through him in the high post as he has excellent court vision. Jokic is a future top 20 tier 3 talent.

49. Myles Turner IND: Much like Jokic, I see a path for Turner to become a top 20 player. That being said, Im more confident in Jokic, because he just looks so smooth and consistent for a young guy. Turner on the other hand is highly inconsistent. That being said, he has the tools to be truly dominant. Really big and athletic guy who is learning to play the 5 after mainly playing PF in college, he has a lot of raw tools on both offense and defense. Really nice jump shot for a guy his size too.

50. Victor Oladipo OKC: Was hard to rank oladipo over porter jr here because I believe in Porter as a really good 3 and D player with more offensive skill then both crowder and ariza, but the wiz suck so dipo it is. Oladipo is a very athletic wing defender who can play some point guard. His offensive game is really unpolished and he's not really an elite defender, but alongside westbrook, he has really upped his game. I always liked him on the magic and thought it was stupid of the magic to trade him for Ibaka, but after making this list I can kinda understand the temptation. Dipo shows no signs of developing into a #1 option and isnt the best fit as a role player, but the overall package is nice.

[Spencer 555]

Hope you guys enjoy lol. I think if I kept going there would be 9 "Tiers" total for every player in the league. The really good player tier was about ten players away (approximately) from being done and then that was going to transition into "the good players" and then into "the meh players" and then "the bad players". Im considering ranking my top 100 players without writing descriptions just cause I wanna see where I would rank the remaining raptors (most of whom I expect to fall in the top 100) and see which teams have the most top 100 players.

[Spencer 555]

Interestingly I ranked the top teams based on my top 50 scoring them assuming 1=100 and 50=2 and the results form a pretty accurate representation of the league power rankings.

1-GSW
2- LAC
3- CLE
4- SAS
5- TOR
6- POR
7- CHI
8- MEM
9- HOU
10- OKC
11- BOS
12- NYK
13- ATL
14- UTA
15- NOP
16- SAC
17- MIL
18- DET
19- MIN
20- IND
21- CHA
22- MIA
23- WAS
24- Suns
25- Nets
26- ORL
27- Den
28- LAL
29- DAL
30- PHI

[Greendaybum5]

you forgot to put Joel The Process Embiid on there

[Spencer 555]

He was damn close. But the sample is too small as of yet.

[Spencer 555]

Robert Covington + Ersan Ilyasova

For

Terrence Ross + Delon Wright

[Spencer 555]

Marcin Gortat + Otto Porter Jr. + Markieff Morris

For

Jonas Valanciunas + Terrence Ross + whatever picks/rookies they want.

[Greendaybum5]

Robert Covington + Ersan Ilyasova

For

Terrence Ross + Delon Wright

Sixers would be stupid to do that.

[Spencer 555]

Why you have no guards.

[Spencer 555]

PG Lonzo Ball
SG Ross
SF Simmons
PF Saric
C Embiid

[Greendaybum5]

Why you have no guards.

Ilyasova has played pretty well since coming over. Probably a good influence for these young guys to see a veteran working his ass off. Covington is the most team-friendly contract in the NBA and is a 2/3 so he's fine at SG

Also when Simmons is back he's running point....

[Spencer 555]

Well Naturally simmons is the point forward, but you still need playmakers and shooters around simmons, like you would around lebron. I think the sixers will draft ball this year unless they get #1 overall and the dude is gonna be 37%+ from 3 and would be a great secondary ball handler. Ross would be the perfect 3 and D spot up shooter who doesn't need the ball in that lineup. Hes a 50/40/90 guy right now compared to covington who is a bench forward ideally and is shooting 35% from the field lol. I do agree covington is a super valuable bench piece on a good team though. Ilyasova would be as well.

[|AFO|]

Also, why would the Wizards do the other trade? If you think Ross and JV just need to go to a team that gets them more involved, the Wizards aren't going to be it. Wall and Beal are taking most of the shots on that team. Porter, Gortat, and Morris fit well in that system. That trade would make zero sense offensively, and hurt a lot on the defensive end and w/ rebounding.

Also, you put Lowry too high on your list, but it's cool. I like him, he's just not a top 15 player.

[Greendaybum5]

Also, why would the Wizards do the other trade? If you think Ross and JV just need to go to a team that gets them more involved, the Wizards aren't going to be it. Wall and Beal are taking most of the shots on that team. Porter, Gortat, and Morris fit well in that system. That trade would make zero sense offensively, and hurt a lot on the defensive end and w/ rebounding.

Also, you put Lowry too high on your list, but it's cool. I like him, he's just not a top 15 player.

he's a raptors fan

[Spencer 555]

Also, why would the Wizards do the other trade? If you think Ross and JV just need to go to a team that gets them more involved, the Wizards aren't going to be it. Wall and Beal are taking most of the shots on that team. Porter, Gortat, and Morris fit well in that system. That trade would make zero sense offensively, and hurt a lot on the defensive end and w/ rebounding.

Also, you put Lowry too high on your list, but it's cool. I like him, he's just not a top 15 player.

Ya I realised after I suggested the WAS thing how bad that trade would be lol. Gortat is probably equally valuable to JV alone and porter is better then ross lol.

Lowry was ranked 14 by SI, is having a better year in general then last year, was clearly better at pg then irving for the US team, and is rated 3rd in the league in terms of war right now.

[KBHoleN1]

Than. The word is than. ffs

/aneurysm

[Spencer 555]

What kind of satisfaction do you gain from being the grammar police? Does it actually bother you seeing me say "your so dumb?"

[Detonation]

What's up guys!

Spencer has some delusional trades lol.

That cousins trade would never happen, you have to give tons for a player of Cousin's caliber, look how much the Cavs gave for Love. You have to give a guy who is another superstar or star with superstar potential packed with a first round pick and other complimentary players or a young guy with superstar potential packed with a first round and solid role players. That plus Cousins has be willing to play for that team, no team will trade for him without knowing he actually wants to play for them. There's no reason why Cousins would want to play for the Raptors, the only team right now that he might seem to want to play with would be the Wizards cause of John Wall. Other than that, the Celtics have a good chance I think because of the amount of assets they got, plus they got good reputation as a big market team.

The other trade with the Wizards, JV is better than Gortat but the Wizards would be stupid to give Porter in that trade.

Also, I thought you were right when you claimed Lowry was better than Wall and Kyrie about a year ago, by the allstar break. I don't think Lowry is better than either one anymore lol. Think about this, if you switch Kyrie with Lowry last year, they do not win the championship. Espn rankings have Lowry at 18 and Kyrie at 15. I think they both might be top 15 but Kyrie has definitely surpassed him now.

[Spencer 555]

Hey deto!

Cousins is good friends with derozan. He has been seen wearing raptors gear while working out.

In terms of lowry, ive stated many reasons why lowry is better then kyrie. I can go on all day man. Just gotta watch the tape of how much better team USA is with lowry at PG. Kyrie isnt a leader and the cavs without lebron wouldnt be a playoff team. Lowry carries the shit out of the raptors.

[Spencer 555]

Also wtf did wall do to deserve to be better then lowry in the last calendar year. His jumpshot is the same exact same crap as always and the wizards are still a useless team. If you put lowry with the wiz starting lineup they would be a top 5 eastern conference team.

Also, let me be clear, offensively: as a scorer, irving is a lot better then lowry. Irving is a top 5 scorer in the league likely. But his playmaking and defense are both below average. He doesnt make anyone around him better.

[The Professor]

I think Lowry is better overall, but with Irving only 24, it won't be for long.

Defense is a big reason why he is better, but just like the last 3 games of the Finals showed, Kyrie is the type of player you want to have. When he gets hot, he's unstoppable.

[Spencer 555]

Totally agreed on the ceiling. Hes an unreal offensive player. But the dude has below avg vision on the court on both ends of the floor. I think wall is gonna be a monster way sooner then kyrie. Theyre all awesome players, but lowry does all the little things.

[The Professor]

Lowry may do the little things, but I think Irvings skills become more pronounced in the postseason. In the playoffs, you play a team 4-7 times and you learn everything about each other. What's makes Irving special is when he goes off, I haven't seen anybody capable of stopping him. So even if a team knows his tendencies and what plays they want to run, Kyrie can null everything by playing one on one and making ridiculous shots.

Team defense becomes so good that sometimes you just need that player that can't be stopped. Irving can do that any given time. I don't believe Wall and Lowry can do that. Without KD, Westbrook can't do that either. Shooting limits all three players, even Lowry who is better than Wall and Westbrook in that area.

[Spencer 555]

Ya thats a pretty agreeable opinion. I think the raps are gonna surprise a lot of people this year though. Lowry wasnt able to carry the raps in his first two playoff runs, but he was a different player altogether last year when he found his 3 point shot. He wasnt terrible in the playoffs last year, but an arm injury made him a 30% shooter from the field and the raps still got two games from the cavs because of our depth as a team. A healthy lowry is gonna turn some heads and I would not be at all surprised if we beat the cavs this year. Channing frye and Love scare me a whole lot more then irving in terms of matchups.

I will say that the raps are gonna sorely miss having biyombo slap people around in the playoffs. No guarantee the raps make it to a conference final without that rim protection and defense. He was huge for us in the playoffs.

[Spencer 555]

Also @deto, is anthony bennett + andrew wiggins + thad young really that valuable? I think I would rather JV + Ross + picks.

I can understand the temptation of wiggins, but he hadn't played a single nba game at that point, Bennett was clearly a bust at the point of that trade, and thad young was maybe a solid NBA starter at that point (he is a good player now). With Ross and JV you are banking your money on two young controllable assets with more upside then a thad young who you can build a core around. On top if that you add whatever combination of rookies and picks from the raptors u want until we come to an agreement or I decide you're asking too much. Would you not value two guaranteed rotational players with good contracts over a lottery ticket, a bust with some upside and a potential role player? By trading Boogie for players like JV and Ross, they commit themselves to tanking and building through the draft while also guaranteeing that they will have solid young rotational players to build around any future star they may draft...

It seems in basketball people claim teams are stupid, but then support trades of superstar players for young potential superstars. Its like a rinse repeat no? Can we not comprehend the value of building a team from within? To me, without having rotational players in place to build around young talent you're just going to have an endless cycle of lottery ticket accumulation. Why else does it seem San Antonio can draft players 25th every year and have them develop into NBA players? Its not luck, and I would argue it's not "veteran leadership". Its something easily quantifiable.. its he fact that san antonio always has a core of solid rotational players in place to build around young talent. Unselfish role players who enable the young talent moving up through the system. Timmy D was not a dominant player in the latter part of his career, but the dude was invaluable to the growth of every single player who came up through that system over the years because he played an unselfish role and stayed in his lane despite his reputation as a hall of famer. I expect Kawhi will do the same when his time comes and along with players like patty mills, danny green and now jon simmons and kyle anderson stepping up into their roles, san antonio is destined to be good for as long as other teams fight over the lottery tickets. In philly, the problem is not a lack of aquiring veteran leadership, we saw how "valuable" kevin garnett was to the twolves, it's the fact that they have a bunch of young players competing with eachother who don't know their roles.

I think philly is finally on the verge of something next year, but it wont surprise anyone to see them be a bottom feeder next year even with a big three (embiid - simmons - one of the legit point guards at the top of the draft ie lonzo ball). Its gonna be players like Dario Saric and Robert Covington and jerryd bayless who enable their teammates as unselfish role players to develop while learning to win.

I think what seperates consistently good NBA teams from also rans like sacramento and portland is the understanding of how valuable role players can be. Ross and JV are never going to be superstars (likely), but if traded, they would be invaluable role players to a rebuilding team. By the time the rebuilding process comes to fruition and you have some real young talent to build around, you're not going to want to watch them age around young talentless depth. And if you think it's as simple as building around "veteren leadership" guess where the good vets go to retire. San antonio, cleveland, gsw and teams in that range. Thats my case for a Cousins and im stickin to it lol.

[|AFO|]

Lowry may do the little things, but I think Irvings skills become more pronounced in the postseason. In the playoffs, you play a team 4-7 times and you learn everything about each other. What's makes Irving special is when he goes off, I haven't seen anybody capable of stopping him. So even if a team knows his tendencies and what plays they want to run, Kyrie can null everything by playing one on one and making ridiculous shots.

Team defense becomes so good that sometimes you just need that player that can't be stopped. Irving can do that any given time.

This was on full display yesterday. GSW still seem like the favorites this year, but Irving seems to have their #.

Also Green is an idiot.

[Spencer 555]

This was on full display yesterday. GSW still seem like the favorites this year, but Irving seems to have their #.

Also Green is an idiot.

Did you watch the Utah game where lowry went off for 36 in 3 quarters on 15 of 20? He sat out the third because he was busy getting stitches for getting elbowed in the mouth.

Noones arguing irving is an awesome player, Im simply pointing out that lowry is better.

And also, Lebron carried that game yesterday much harder then Irving, he's second fiddle on an awesome team. An awesome team that may not be so much better then the lowry led raptors.

People need to stop putting irving on a pedestal because he plays next to the best player of our generation lol.

[The Professor]

Lowry may be better, but Irvings main skills (shooting and dribbling) allow him to breakdown any defense against any defender. Overall Lowry is better I think, but if you swapped Irving for Lowry, I don't believe the Cavs win the title.

[Spencer 555]

I would highly contest that opinion, but it is debateable. As long as you can grant me that if we swapped irving for lowry the raps probably wouldnt be a playoff team (I actually believe they would be a 30-35 win team with irving.)

[The Professor]

I'd say fringe playoff team; it's the east. But I definitely agree they would be worse with Irving vs. Lowry, at least in the regular season. Again, Irvings game is well suited for the playoffs versus the regular season. Irving is a great player who will look better in the playoffs.

[Spencer 555]

I dunno man, its hard to argue that irving isnt more talented offensively then lowry and derozan from a pure skills perspective, but playing beside lebron is a pretty huge benefit for irving to shine in the playoffs, not to mention channing frye, JR smith and Love. As a #1 option on the raptors, I suspect irving would struggle much like dero and lowry have been over the years in the playoffs. Teams can gameplan for irving more then they can for Lebron and irving cant do shit to stop anyone on the other end lol.

if given the opportunity to play alongside lebron, lets not underestimate lowries scoring potential and ability to drive the net and create for teammates.

Also, I remember their was a time lowry was rumored to be going to the heat because Lebron wanted him. So theirs that too lol.

[Spencer 555]

Cavs sit lebron, lose by double digits. 4-18 when lebron sits since his return.

[Spencer 555]

Wonder if the wiz would benefit from a beal trade. Porter and Wall put on a show last night against milwaukee.

[Greendaybum5]

Also @deto, is anthony bennett + andrew wiggins + thad young really that valuable? I think I would rather JV + Ross + picks.


Can we stop for a second.... Wiggins is hands down the top player of anyone involved here. He's gonna be a stud and is already legit for someone who's maybe 20 years old? (haven't googled him)

[Spencer 555]

Skillswise, I wouldnt say wiggins is much better then ross right now. He is a much better player in terms of handle, but the jumper holds him back and he hasnt really figured out how to play defense yet like ross has this year. At 6'8 with all that athleticism, Im banking on wiggy making the jump, but he isnt there yet honestly.

Another thing about wiggy is that his value has probably gone down since he was drafted. For a first overall pick with a lot of hype, he has been somewhat underwhelming.

Wiggy is 21 btw. I think his ceiling is tmac and floor is what he is now.

[Spencer 555]

Raptors have 0 chance against the warriors in the playoffs lol.

[Spencer 555]

Lowry has officially recorded the highest WAR in the league so far.

Is 7th in basketball reference vorp, 6th in WS and among the league leaders in PER. Irving isnt in the top 20 for any of these statistics.

Furthermore, lowry does this as a secondary scorer behind demar derozan. I can only imagine that he would be even better beside lebron james and kevin love instead of derozan and patrick patterson. Kyle Lowry's usage rate is a full 5% less then Kyrie's suggesting that he is much more comfortable off the ball then irving.

So based on all of this information, we still think irving is better because he can exploit defenses by going 1v1 against anyone? I don't think so. Lowry is the more valuable player based on this information. He is the better defensive player, the better playmaker, the better offball threat, the more efficient player, less of a ball hog and generally just a more savvy and creative player all around.

[Greendaybum5]

Lowry has officially recorded the highest WAR in the league so far.

Is 7th in basketball reference vorp, 6th in WS and among the league leaders in PER. Irving isnt in the top 20 for any of these statistics.

Furthermore, lowry does this as a secondary scorer behind demar derozan. I can only imagine that he would be even better beside lebron james and kevin love instead of derozan and patrick patterson. Kyle Lowry's usage rate is a full 5% less then Kyrie's suggesting that he is much more comfortable off the ball then irving.

So based on all of this information, we still think irving is better because he can exploit defenses by going 1v1 against anyone? I don't think so. Lowry is the more valuable player based on this information. He is the better defensive player, the better playmaker, the better offball threat, the more efficient player, less of a ball hog and generally just a more savvy and creative player all around.

You know the best part about all of this? He'll be a 76er next year :)

[Spencer 555]

You know the best part about all of this? He'll be a 76er next year :)

Lol if he is one, I may just convert. Wouldn't be mad either, hard not to like the 6ers with Lowry, embiid, Simmons and one of the studs getting drafted top 5 this year

[Greendaybum5]

Lol if he is one, I may just convert. Wouldn't be mad either, hard not to like the 6ers with Lowry, embiid, Simmons and one of the studs getting drafted top 5 this year

gonna be a hot rumor... he's from the area and went to Nova. Also with Ilyasova saying he'd like to resign there's reason to believe the culture is changing here. Granted he's not a star, but he's definitely a solid 6 man.

[Spencer 555]

Absolutely, I didnt have much confidence in the rebuild until this year, but its hard not to like the role players the sixers have on the wing and in the frontcourt. They just need competent guards and theyll be set. They have no guards whatsover lol.

[Greendaybum5]

Woot Sixers held on for the win

[Serge]

Who would take Beal? Dude is injured constantly.

[Greendaybum5]

Who would take Beal? Dude is injured constantly.

I mean injuries being factored into a decision I'd still take him in Philly lol.

[Spencer 555]

Philly, u have no idea how much I wanna see Ball, Simmons and Embiid play together next year.

[Greendaybum5]

Philly, u have no idea how much I wanna see Ball, Simmons and Embiid play together next year.

only thing is Sixers want Simmons to man the Point. I see them drafting a stud shooter. I suppose they could do that with the Lakers pick though. Ball has a good 3p%, but I don't watch enough UCLA ball to know if he needs the ball in his hands.

[Spencer 555]

Ball: Super high basketball IQ. Really good shooter despite stupid mechanics. He would be going #1 for sure if not for his shitty shooting mechanics. Not going to be an elite defender, but should be able to guard both guard positions and some 3s at a sufficient enough level, he's 6'6 with a 6'8 wingspan and very athletic. I think the only knock on his game is his overconfidence, he seems like a punk at times.

The 6ers would have an absolutely devastating transition game, a high paced offense with good spacing, high IQ and passing at several positions. And on defense, the embiid/Saric frontcourt is promising, Ball and Simmons on the wings will likely be competent defenders and if they snagged a solid 3 and D specialist who doesnt need the ball.. that would be scary. Covington could be the 6th man off the bench in a patrick patterson esque roll at PF and I still kinda like the Canadian who's name escapes me as a potential scoring punch off the bench. Not to mention any other role players left on the team when all is said and done.

My prediction is the 6ers will win 30 games next year if they get ball.

[Greendaybum5]

Jimmy Butler back on the trading block.

What do you think it takes to land him? Think they'd take Okafor and the Lakers 1st round pick this year? Or is that just wishful thinking? I'd even throw Saric in

[Maverik]

I really hope Jimmy Butler comes to LA.

I wanted him when there were first trade rumors about him.

[Spencer 555]

Interesting, wonder how wade would feel about this. Honestly don't hate the idea of a bulls rebuild right now, butler is a great player, but the bulls are in the also-ran category right now and I don't see that changing anytime soon with the roster structure.

The idea of tanking with Wade at the helm is weird, but cool. Dude has won it all and doesnt have anything left to prove. His prime is behind him and he's signed long term for his hometown. He can sit back, make his money, take advantage of his huge market in chicago with endorsements AND he can have fun being a mentor for any future bulls stars. + he can still turn back the clock when he wants for any surprise playoff births like in miami last year.. what a beast lol.

If I were wade, Id be down.

@philly with saric, it's a maybe. That's 2 maybe good players and one high lottery pick in a pretty good draft. I would probably prefer noel if I were the bulls though. Okafor is a real project atm.

[Spencer 555]

Speaking of big trades, what you guys think milsap comes to toronto for? Ross + sullinger + picks/rookies?

[The One]

Horrid, horrid showing last night for the the Warriors vs Grizzlies. Ice cold in the 4th quarter and OT. They couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

[Spencer 555]

Fun game to watch tn vs the bulls, was old school basketball for most of the game other then some weak ref calls on both ends.

Butler really steps up against his boys lowry and demar lol. Would be really cool to see butler get traded to the celtics and milsap to the raptors to have 3 legit title contenders in the east.

Bradley + the nets pick should get butler imo.

[Spencer 555]

Delon wright makin his way back from injury, excited to see what he can do after bulking up and working on his release in the offseason. He looked really promising in the dleague last year, can see him developing into a solid nba backup with a small chance at being a starter if he can figure out his jumper. Defense and ballhandling are nba ready and he has size.

[Greendaybum5]

Wow Spence we had two visitors this past week to what feels like our NBA one on one discussion thread lol

[Spencer 555]

Haha pretty much.

[Spencer 555]

Does favors Burcs exam and a pick get Millsap and sefolosha from the Hawks?

[Greendaybum5]

Does favors Burcs exam and a pick get Millsap and sefolosha from the Hawks?

Why does Utah do that trade?

[Spencer 555]

They have a top ten offense and defense right now without a viable power forward. Lyles looks very promising, but Millsap could push them to a championship calibre team in the mold of the Pistons with Rasheed wallace. The Hawks get favors who doesn't fit beside gobert, but could be a really solid 5 in the mold of Greg Monroe with some development, exum who has a few years before anyone should give up on his talent and Burcs who can be a bench scorer until his contract is up.

[The Professor]

Millsap is no Rasheed and the Jazz aren't the Pistons.

That's a lot to give up for a player that will be a free agent looking for max money in his thirties. On top of that, it doesn't even make them a top 4 West team as the Spurs, Warriors, Rockets, and healthy Clippers would be better.

[Spencer 555]

How can you say Millsap "isn't Rasheed" like Rasheed was some franchise player? They're certainly very comparable and valuable glue players. Rasheed was 30 when he was traded to the Pistons and he became the player we know and love after that deal. Millsap is a finished product mind you, but gobert is essentially the Ben wallace of our generation and the wings on Utah combined are certainly on par with Billups, Prince and Hamilton. I believe Utah would at least be on par with the spurs with Millsap in tow and they have more then enough cap room to sign both Hayward and Millsap long term.

[Spencer 555]

So if u guys are saying it's a lot to give up then it only makes it easier for Utah to aquire Millsap lol. I've been saying since gobert emerged that Utah was my sleeper pick in the west and I'm glad they're proving me right this year after two disapointing seasons, but if they want to contend with no all stars they need a player like Millsap at the 4. They would have a top 5 offense and #1 defence with milsap No?

[The Professor]

How can you say Millsap "isn't Rasheed" like Rasheed was some franchise player? They're certainly very comparable and valuable glue players. Rasheed was 30 when he was traded to the Pistons and he became the player we know and love after that deal. Millsap is a finished product mind you, but gobert is essentially the Ben wallace of our generation and the wings on Utah combined are certainly on par with Billups, Prince and Hamilton. I believe Utah would at least be on par with the spurs with Millsap in tow and they have more then enough cap room to sign both Hayward and Millsap long term.

Rasheed had franchise talent. He never had the discipline to put teams on his back by himself and be a Superstar, but the talent was always there. Even on the Pistons, he was their best player. He was an offensive mismatch and could control segments of the game from the post, and defensively is one of the most underrated bigs, ever.

Millsap is a good player, he is. He does not have Rasheed's talent. That talent propelled Detroit to a championship when it was harnessed. Millsap going to Utah isn't going to uncover some special ability and propel them forward.

Hill, Hood, and Hayward are no Billups, Rip, and Tayshaun. They might be comparable offensively, but not defensively. Also, those Pistons teams were so much better at scoring easy baskets than jump shots.

I also don't believe in Hayward. He's an all-star, not a Superstar. And the Jazz have a good defense, but it's not all-time like those Pistons teams.

[Sanosuke]

Comparing Gobert to Ben Wallace is an insult to Wallace.

[Greendaybum5]

Comparing Gobert to Ben Wallace is an insult to Wallace.

Wallace will be in HOF soon

[Spencer 555]

I can agree with that post Sano, but gobert is the closest thing we have to Ben in our current NBA and this Jazz team is the closest team, imo, in the league to having a title contender without any legit allstar players.

@prof Its hard to compare sheed and Millsap because they're similar in terms of being underrated PF, but their games were very different. Sheed was a more explosive player, but Millsap gets it done offensively as well as Sheed with other tools. Defensively, Sheed was a monster, but Millsap is such a smart system defender it's hard to say they aren't on par. If we're comparing the two players in terms of actual skill and athleticism, Sheed would win (much like most PF from the 90s/early 2000s) but in terms of what Millsap brings to a team in today's NBA it's hard to say Sheed was more valuable to those pistons teams then Millsap would be to the Jazz if traded.

Billups was way better offensively then Hill, but Hill is a very smart 2 way player whereas Billups was a bulldog like Lowry. I would prefer Hill defensively if I'm being honest and I'd rathere have the ball in Haywards hands anyways. As a secondary ball handler who can play off the ball and defend, hill is awesome in his role.

Hood and Hamilton are pretty comparable. I think I would take 04 hamilton over hood, but only because hood is inexperienced. Would argue Hood has more potential, but they're very similar.

Hayward to me is clearly a much better player then prince ever was. Prince was a revolutionary player at the time with his 3 and D play, but Hayward is no slouch on defense and does a whole lot more offensively. In a sense, Hayward is what Billups was for the Pistons. An unheralded all star who should be given more credit.

So ya, though I agree Detroits wings were better as a whole, I do think both units are comparable and with some experience, may yet prove to be as good.

End of the day, my main point in this argument is that Millsap would bump the jazz defense to #1 in the league as currently constructed and bump it's offense to the top 7 at least. You can win a championship with the undisputed #1 defense in the league and a top 10 offense and if the Jazz won it, they would only be the second team in history to win it without any all stars on the team. Which I think is very cool and what I cheer for when I watch the NBA

[The Professor]

Like I said, Millsap is good, but he's not turning the Jazz into a powerhouse. And the Jazz can't afford Millsap, Gobert, and Hayward on max contracts and maintain the depth they have. Millsap wants the 150/million or whatever that he's eligible for. It's a lot to gamble for a non-superstar wanting that money which is why Atlanta wanted to trade him at first.

The Jazz might make the second round if that, but that's as far as they go, even with Millsap.

[Spencer 555]

Haha well I disagree with your assessment of milsap, but you're most likely right about Utah being too cheap and conservative to fork out that kinda money for a player that could make them a contender regardless.

That being said, I think I've seen enough from Trey Lyles to say I think he has the potential to be what Utah needs at PF in the next couple years, so maybe they can just grow internally and be even better with their own guys. I still think they should try to package those three in a trade just to get rid of Alec Burks terrible contract and get some value out of favors before he loses it all sitting on the bench. Favors is a really valuable player in the right circumstances, just not when your team has Gobert or a player in that ilk lol.

[Sanosuke]

I can agree with that post Sano, but gobert is the closest thing we have to Ben in our current NBA and this Jazz team is the closest team, imo, in the league to having a title contender without any legit allstar players.

Gobert is not the closest thing we have to Ben Wallace and the Jazz have nothing to do with that comparison.

Ben Wallace won DPOTY 4 times in 5 seasons and had 4 seasons of 1000+ rebounds and averaged 15 rpg in a season and is a lock for the hall of fame. Comparing a 2-3 year player to Ben Fucking Wallace is dumb

[Spencer 555]

I'm not saying Gobert is on Bens level, but Gobert is the best defensive big man in the game since Ben. Wallace and that pistons team is my fav Era of basketball so you don't need to preach to me about how awesome wallace is. If I had it my way Wallace would literally go down as the greatest defensive big man of all time so you literally are preaching to the choir right now about him lol.

[Spencer 555]

PS I hope Gobert wins dpoy this year and I at least expect him to win a couple in his career. Dude is a fantastic player.

[Maverik]

Ben Wallace will not make the HOF

that's a joke

[Sanosuke]

I'm not saying Gobert is on Bens level, but Gobert is the best defensive big man in the game since Ben. Wallace and that pistons team is my fav Era of basketball so you don't need to preach to me about how awesome wallace is. If I had it my way Wallace would literally go down as the greatest defensive big man of all time so you literally are preaching to the choir right now about him lol.

Dwight Howard?

[Spencer 555]

Gross Sano.

[Spencer 555]

Ben Wallace will not make the HOF

that's a joke

The joke is that you can't recognize and respect Ben as the best defensive big man to ever play the game. Only comparables are Hakeem Olajuwon and Bill Russell on that end.

[Maverik]

you can't even talk about Big Ben in the same sentence as Hakeem and Bill Russell

that's embarrassing for you to try to say that

Big Ben had a few good years on the defensive end and was a liability on the offensive end. He averaged 5.7ppg and 9.6ppg. If you honestly think that makes the HOF, you're just a fool.

He had ~6 good seasons, which means for over half his career, he was forgettable.

[Spencer 555]

Sure can, if you eliminate offensive production. I consider him on par or better then those two on the defensive end. Granted, big Ben was a 0 on offense comparing him to Russ and Olajuwon.

[Spencer 555]

And if you're about to say I can't eliminate the offensive end, I think the HOF has plenty of players who were only good on one side of the court. Ben was a completely dominant force on one side of the court, much like Iverson and Nash on offense. Don't think anyone will argue Iverson and Nash are hof players.

[Maverik]

I consider him on par or better then those two on the defensive end

well now we know you're just clueless

[The Professor]

I think Ben Wallace is a Hall of Famer, but barely. He's 16th in defensive win shares all time which is pretty impressive and Hall of Fame worthy, but his offensive game was trash. Remember, the game is more about getting buckets than stopping them, which is why offense is always important.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_career.html

That's the link btw. Tim Duncan #2 bitches.

[Spencer 555]

well now we know you're just clueless

LOL based on what? Your impression? Base your argument on some kind of statistical analysis before tossing around insults like that. I'm so sick of arguing with people who deal in absolutes like they know everything.

[Spencer 555]

See this is why prof is awesome and I like conversing with him about basketball, he backs up his opinion with facts and analysis before disagreeing with me. Thank you for being cool prof.

[Maverik]

I gave you his garbage statline.

You gave nothing.

I like Big Ben, always been a fan.

You are just out of touch.

[Spencer 555]

Mav, I made a statement. It was shallow and based on my personal opinion. You discredit my opinion by saying I'm clueless and out of touch without actually providing a compelling statistical argument of your own as to why you think that. At least give me the benefit of the doubt before tossing around bullshit like that and understand that I will provide you with strong statistical facts to back up my opinion if you disagree with it... to me, you're just being a twat

[Maverik]

Russell and Olajuwon are 1 and 4 on that list Prof posted that you enjoyed so much.

So yes, you saying Big Ben is in the same class as them is indeed laughable.

[Spencer 555]

Ya and I plan to refute that list to an extent because prof is cool enough to post something substantial in this thread instead of trolling me with baseless comments.

[Maverik]

you're like Cliche here

you get evidence and just ignore it and keep arguing

[Spencer 555]

Maybe a bit, that's a bit of a leap though. I'm not as hostile and confrontational as cliche. I'm just pointing out that you're being a dick to me for no good reason. Would be cool if you actually respected me and my opinion so we could have a decent convo about Ben wallace's greatness, or even my claims that I think Gobert has a chance to be great. To me you just view my attempts at dialogue and interesting basketball conversation as blasphemous..

[Maverik]

when you start the conversation by comparing Big Ben to the greatest center and biggest champion of all time and a revolutionary player like Hakeem, who has one-manned his team to a championship, then you're so far off-base that a debate isn't even reasonable

[Spencer 555]

Ben defensively is comparable though dude, what set Olajuwon and Russel apart is that they were big parts of their offences. Olajuwon especially was the offensive focal point of his teams while simultaneously dominating the defensive end. I'm not comparing wallace to those 2 overall. I'll write a more in depth post about Ben soon.

[The Professor]

when you start the conversation by comparing Big Ben to the greatest center and biggest champion of all time and a revolutionary player like Hakeem, who has one-manned his team to a championship, then you're so far off-base that a debate isn't even reasonable

One-manned? Hakeem had Clyde Drexler (injured for a bit but played at all-star level), Robert Horry, Sam Cassel, Mario Elie, and Vernon Maxwell and Kenny Smith. Clutch city. Hakeem was amazing, but he didn't have scrubs. Even if you discount everybody else, can't discount Drexler. Probably 2nd or 3rd best guard after MJ. (For the 90's. Not all time obviously.)

[Maverik]

he led the Rockets in every major statistical category (ppg, reb, ast, stl and blk) during the 94 championship

I would call that one-manning

[The Professor]

It's close; not another superstar but he did have multiple double digit scorers.

I'd say if anybody one-manned their team to a championship, it was 2003 Tim Duncan and 2011 Dirk.

[Spencer 555]

So you no doubt think kyrie is trash beside lebron like I do ;). JK tho, Olajuwon was definitely the star of the show in Houston for those championships.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NSwQTvN-uQk

Here's my argument for why Ben Wallace should be remembered as one of, if not the best, defensive bigs in the league.

Wallace was undrafted out of college and played for a D2 school as a forward. Because of this and good guidance from coaches and role models, he knew his only chance at making a career for himself in the NBA was with defence and rebounding. To me, Ben is one of the first examples of what big men are in today's game and to this day is probably still the most athletic and dominant defender of that ilk due to his work ethic (and possibly steroids lol). He opened the door for big athletic dudes who work hard but don't have much skill; who carve out a career as a viable team player. In doing so, Ben kinda killed a generation of finesse bigs in the process because every coach in the NBA wants a systemic big who is strong enough to defend 5s, quick enough to switch on guards, long enough to protect the paint and passing lanes, and unselfish enough to understand that he can help an offence more by finishing oops above the rim then ever dribbling the ball. It's almost a necessity in our game today for big men to have that Ben wallace makeup and I feel like we're seeing an influx of talented bigs who have all the qualities of Ben + an ability to pass like Pau and post moves like Olajuwon (I can dream on embiid). None have truly stepped up to encompass all of these players, but it's pretty apparent what coaches in this league want at minimum from their bigs. Case in point biz making 18 mill to set screens, roll and rebound. It's nuts really, but it's all because of Ben imo.

Further to that point, by simply looking at dws, we can look at the single most dominant years on that end here.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_season.html

We see the top 20 years statistically according to bbref are littered with mostly bill Russels domination of the 60s with a couple big years from other great defenders of that Era, but the 2 outliers are Ben wallace 03/04 and Olajuwon of 89/90. I would argue that the 80s, 90s and early 2000s were basketball's golden age and any statistics taken from outside this window need to be observed with an grain of salt due to the competition being a little watered down. That being said, Ben got it done at the highest level of competition and he was the leader of a championship team that won because of its sheer dominance on the defensive side of the ball. Scroll a little through the top 250 seasons according to dws and you'll see Ben Wallace all over the place.

Looking a little deeper into some more analytical numbers, we can see what Ben really meant to his team on that end of the court. Single season defensive BPM has 5 seasons of Ben Walace in the top 10 of all time and the top 3 are all Big Ben.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dbpm_season.html

Another good metric that sheds a positive light on Wallace's career is NBA maths TPA model. According to them, Wallace appears 5 times in the top 10 seasons by their defensive metric and twice more in the top twenty. According to their career numbers, Wallace ranks 3rd all time not far behind Duncan and Olajuwon (2 players who played much longer then him).

http://nbamath.com/nba-career-standings/

So considering I can argue Wallace's peak was greater then Olajuwon's and many other big men defensively, and the numbers say his 15 year carear stacks up to the best who had longer careers, I think it's safe to say Wallace is in the conversation as one of the best bigs of all time defensively. I understand you think it's blasphemous to make this suggestion, but many basketball analytics would suggest I at least have a case.

[Maverik]

definitely not Dirk, Olajuwon out-performed him in every category

Duncan maybe

looking at the 94 Rockets and 03 Spurs is pretty interesting

almost the exact same kind of team build, never noticed that before

[Spencer 555]

Duncan had pop ;)

[Sanosuke]

Gross Sano.

Howard won DPOTY 3 times in a row after wallace was gone.

[Spencer 555]

Ya but it's Howard. Ew :p

[Sanosuke]

Ya but it's Howard. Ew :p

I mean you said the league hasn't seen someone has good at center defensively since wallace, but howard is the only one to win the award 3 years straight... if you're gonna disregard that just because of "ew" then idk what to tell you.

[Spencer 555]

Naw ur right, Howard was a beast their for awhile and is still an above average defender. Just dislike him a lot. He had the chance to be something great, but got caught up in the bullshit media and tried to develop post skills that werent gonna come.

[The Professor]

Duncan had pop ;)

Duncan is infinitely more important to San Antonio than Pop. Even if it's close, you take Duncan every time.

Also, Ben had Larry Brown, one of the better defensive minded coaches ever. Just look at his Sixers teams defensive numbers. Ben is great, but he didn't deserve all those DPOTY awards. He had strong raw numbers, but those don't always tell the story. The Pistons as a whole were great defensively with not one chink in their armor. I think Howard, Duncan, and KG were all better.

[The Professor]

definitely not Dirk, Olajuwon out-performed him in every category

Duncan maybe

looking at the 94 Rockets and 03 Spurs is pretty interesting

almost the exact same kind of team build, never noticed that before

Yeah, I saw that Drex was on the 95 team, not 94 so it's close. Second best player for SA was SJax in 03. Still salty about that. Pretty sure SA beats LA if he's in the team. Went to Atlanta for a shitty contract.

[Spencer 555]

Prof, I don't really consider KG and Duncan 5s, but if we're gonna call Duncan a 5 which is arguable, Duncan is probably on that tier 1 with Olajuwon and Russel defensively. KG was definitely a 4 though.

And my mention of pop was totally a troll. Duncan carried a lot of spurs teams in the early 2000s. I just wish I watched more western conference ball back then. I pretty specifically watched Vince back then lol and I hopped on the Pistons bandwagon in 2000 or so.

Interestingly, that 04 spurs team had a better regular season adjusted defensive rating then the Pistons team I'm hyping.

Edit: and in terms of Howard being better defensively then Wallace, I think he had the potential to be better after his first couple years in Orlando, but ever since he moved to the Lakers he's been trying to be something he's not and he's proved over and over that he's mentally and physically soft.

[The Professor]

4/5's back then were Bigs in general. At the end of the day, they were the anchor of top notch defenses, and again I would argue those three are better than Ben.

Howard especially had a chance to have a special career, but his desire to leave Orlando (which I believe never happens if LeBron stays in Cleveland) and come back early after back surgery with the Lakers just diminished him. At his peak he was definitely better than Wallace. Dude anchored one of the best defenses with Rashard Lewis, Turkoglu, and Rafer Alston/Jameer Nelson. He was also likable during those times.

[Spencer 555]

Totally agree on that statement about howard but only for Orlando Howard and only when he was at his peak their. Dude killed his career leaving and letting shaq and other media members influence him (love shaq, but he was a terrible mentor for dwight). It's pretty amazing that he's still one of the better big men in the game right now, but I'm not sure that's him being good or a testament to the shitty quality of big men in our game today.

If we're gonna classify 4's from that Era as big men, which is understandable, I agree that Duncan and KG were comparably great defensively and arguably better then wallace on that end.

[Sanosuke]

I really don't see how you think big men are of shitty quality in the league right now. 4/5s dominate the game still. Porzingis, Favors, Millsap, Ibaka, Aldridge, ANOTHY DAVIS????, Drummond, TOWNS????, COUSINS????, DeAndre Jordan??

Blanket statements like that are ridiculous. To say the NBA has a shitty quality of bigs right now is grossly wrong.

[The Professor]

Not shitty, just not consistent enough. We went from Shaq, TD, KG, and Dirk to the list above.

3 of those can or will be compared to the above 4.

Davis: pure stud. Too injury prone. Worried that what gives him a sizable advantage with his lean frame will never allow him to play a full season.

Cousins: Best big in the game and no player can stop him. Only problem, they don't have too because he stops himself. Blame the Kings if you want, but he was dysfunctional before he got there. Can't control emotions.

Towns: TBD. Best POTENTIAL of anybody. We'll see if Thibs can bring it out. Size, quickness, skills. Doesn't seem like he'll have Davis' injury issues.

Eidt: Can't believe we forgot about The Process himself, Joel Embiid. If this guy can stay healthy (his injuries have been way more serious) then he will be the best. It's crazy but he hasn't even played basketball that long (I don't mean professionally, I mean ever) and to think he's this good already? Chad Ford stated he had Hakeem as his ceiling and health permitting he's right.

[Spencer 555]

Prof sumed it up well. The bigs of our generation are promising, but a lot of the guys you mentioned up their don't compare to what we used to have. The game for generations was run through big men, down low in the post. Today's NBA is about guard play almost exclusively, and the only team that runs a system through a big man thats doing well is the grizzlies because Marc can pass like a point guard, shoot threes and defend adequately.

And for the record, I didn't make a blanket statement about the state of big men in our league, I just said I can't really tell if the 5 position is watered down in today's NBA compared to the "golden age" I referenced, where so many big men were monsters in the paint. I certainly don't hate what basketball has become, but I think the mid to late 2000s and everything before the spurs dismantled the heat with the most beautiful basketball ever played and Steph curry's 3 point revolution was kinda a transitional period between generations.

This new generation has a boat load of talent everywhere on the court and we have like 10 legit mega stars. It's pretty awesome and honestly way more fun to watch.

[Sanosuke]

but I'm not sure that's him being good or a testament to the shitty quality of big men in our game today.

And for the record, I didn't make a blanket statement about the state of big men in our league,
ok

@Prof Really excited for Embiid, forgot about him just because as you said he hasn't been playing long. We can't ask for consistency when 3 or the 4 dudes you said haven't been in the NBA that long though.

[Spencer 555]

Sano, that literally means "I'm not sure if howard is just really good or bigs in the league now are just shitty" in layman's.

[The One]

Dear Cavs,

Get fucked.

- Warriors

[Greendaybum5]

Dear Cavs,

Get fucked.

- Warriors

That was weird game. I believe Cleveland had won 4 straight right? But Vegas had GS as 9 pt favorites at tip off. How the hell do they know it's gonna be a rout there?

[The Professor]

Warriors were due for a win? Warriors point differential off the charts? Warriors are better at home? Cleveland barely won a couple of those 4 games? Cleveland was on its fifth or sixth straight road game? No JR Smith? Cleveland hasn't actually looked good all month?

Idk, but if you look at everything from an unbiased analytical perspective, probably makes sense.

[Spencer 555]

Sasss

[Greendaybum5]

Warriors were due for a win? Warriors point differential off the charts? Warriors are better at home? Cleveland barely won a couple of those 4 games? Cleveland was on its fifth or sixth straight road game? No JR Smith? Cleveland hasn't actually looked good all month?

Idk, but if you look at everything from an unbiased analytical perspective, probably makes sense.

I still expect to see a hard fought game every time. Happy I didn't bet it because I would've taken the points.

Side note this website is pretty cool: www.tankathon.com

[Spencer 555]

Oh man Philly needs to start losing some more games! They ain't getting anything they need at 6 lol

[The Professor]

I still expect to see a hard fought game every time. Happy I didn't bet it because I would've taken the points.

Side note this website is pretty cool: www.tankathon.com

3 point shot and the amount taken adds much more variance. This was more of hope for a close game but all signs pointed to a beat down. The surprising thing was how bad the beat down was.

[Spencer 555]

Honestly not that surprised, lebron has shown over and over that he values one thing only, and that's championships. I think he and the cavs got up to play on Christmas to make sure the Warriors knew their place, but he and the cavs didn't look like they were trying very hard in this recent game. Lebron coulda taken over, but I think he realised his team was too tired due to the sched to compete, so he just chilled and played at 50% which I think he does most of the time to let his team get better around him.

Still.. I feel like the Warriors are on another level this year and no matter how well rested lebron is for the finals, this GSW team with durant is just too good.

[Spencer 555]

Was looking at team lineup stats today cause I was sick and took the day off so I just sat on my phone and geekEd out. Something interesting I found about the spurs: they haven't played Anderson, Green and Kawhi together at any point this year. Is Pop allergic to small Ball?

I could really see a mills, green, Kawhi, Anderson, Dedmon lineup flourishing. There is a 5 minute sample of this lineup with Aldridge instead of Dedmon and they were + 26 net rating (for what it's worth) lol

[Greendaybum5]

Oh man Philly needs to start losing some more games! They ain't getting anything they need at 6 lol

deep draft man!

We also have lakers pick and if kings end up ahead of us either by record or by getting into top 3 sixers own a pick swap with them.

[Spencer 555]

Ya it really is. Lots of really solid seniors and high IQ freshman later in the draft that I like. I'm not super high on the middle round guys, but the sixers could get a couple promising guards in the top ten. I just think Ball is the one they need.

[Spencer 555]

Stoked for the game tn, last time I watched the raps v Sixers embiid wasn't in the lineup.

[Greendaybum5]

Stoked for the game tn, last time I watched the raps v Sixers embiid wasn't in the lineup.

raps are 5.5 pt favorites what you think?

[Spencer 555]

They should cover that pretty easy, but keep an eye on resting players. I know our frontcourt is really depleted too. Injuryville in Toronto atm and were on the road coming off a back to back.

[Spencer 555]

Man, the Sixers defence is so much better then I remember. They're gonna be a very good defensive team when thy get some guards who can play. Good lord the guards on this team are soooo bad lolol

[Spencer 555]

Raptors struggling on some open looks in the 2nd, the sixers defence regressed a bit, but they are pesky. Im kinda expecting Derozan to bounce back in the second half, he's looked pretty terrible out there (probably tired from the back to back)

Embiid is so fun lol, got the crowd going on some free throws.

[Spencer 555]

Ew, embiid just got a veteran foul call right there going against poeltl. He just fell into poeltl and got the call lol. Sometimes the NBA sucks.

[Spencer 555]

Embiid poppin off in the 4th! Big time shots back to back, this could be a real statement game.

[Spencer 555]

Great game Philly, gotta be excited for next year after a performance like that.

[Greendaybum5]

Great game Philly, gotta be excited for next year after a performance like that.

More excited for 2 years from now haha.

But he is amazing. The foot injury I think really helped him develop his shot. I mean the guy can nail threes and is shooting over 80% at the line. His clutch time FT% is great too!

Hearing that stadium chant "Trust the Process" was absolutely amazing. Embiid has the fans won over more so than any player since Allen Iverson.

[Spencer 555]

I dunno man, Philly could really be a playoff team next year, they have all the ground work ready to bring in some talented guards and I think tj and stauskas would be solid bench players. Stauskas and Mconnel are pesky defenders and can score.

McConnell, stauskas, Covington ilyasova noel on the bench with 2 guards, simmons, saric and embiid starting. That's set for next year and if embiid is getting 30 minuted a night Philly is definitely a playoff team.

[Greendaybum5]

I dunno man, Philly could really be a playoff team next year, they have all the ground work ready to bring in some talented guards and I think tj and stauskas would be solid bench players. Stauskas and Mconnel are pesky defenders and can score.

McConnell, stauskas, Covington ilyasova noel on the bench with 2 guards, simmons, saric and embiid starting. That's set for next year and if embiid is getting 30 minuted a night Philly is definitely a playoff team.

haha so much wrong with this post bud. noel is a FA no chance they bring him back. yes it is RFA, but not going to pay him as much as he's going to get to come off the bench. Okafor wasn't on your list either. I hope he's traded but if not he'll be back. Stauskas is awful. Pesky defender? is that serious lol

[Spencer 555]

I'm willing to bet by this time next year Noel is still a 6er and okafor is traded.

Stauskas isn't a great defender, but he's hugely improved on that end of the court compared to his first two years. Along with TJ mconnel they can be very annoying and they put a lot of pressure on ball handlers. Who do you prefer as a backup SG on the 6ers?

[Spencer 555]

I think long-term stauskas is a nice bench piece. Someone you can afford to keep in system and let him learn without paying much. I'm actually more concerned with his offensive consistency at this point in his career because he fails to shoot 40% from three and he was pegged as an elite spot up shooter coming outta college.

[Greendaybum5]

So Sixers were 4.5 dogs at home last night to the Clippers. Blake Griffin's first game back, albeit on a limited basis. No Embiid, No Okafor, No Problems?

I couldn't believe that the Sixers were able to pull that off. I love what Brett Brown is doing for this team. At this point in time I can't imagine having any other coach at the helm of this organization. It was one of the best signings for this city in a long time. The excitement in this city is comparable to the '01 Eastern Conference Champion team with Allen Iverson.

Simmons should make his debut right after the all star break. It looks like that game could be vs GSW. Would that be a fun game to watch or what? Even if Sixers blown out by 30 it'll be Embiid & Simmons baby.

[Serge]

So at the halfway point of the year the Wizards have actually turned things around and are red hot right now winning 8 of their last 10. Young players seem to really be thriving under Brooks.

[Greendaybum5]

So at the halfway point of the year the Wizards have actually turned things around and are red hot right now winning 8 of their last 10. Young players seem to really be thriving under Brooks.

They're a fun team to watch. Very impressed with Otto Porter this year.

[Serge]

Yeah, Porter looking like a 3rd overall pick finally.

[Greendaybum5]

Heyoooooo I wish I had the balls to start betting on the Sixers. 11 point underdogs and they win by 4. Noel is increasing his trade value which is fantastic.

Ilyasova is looking like he could be a real compliment to a team that could make a deep run.

[The Professor]

So at the halfway point of the year the Wizards have actually turned things around and are red hot right now winning 8 of their last 10. Young players seem to really be thriving under Brooks.

Brooks got a lot of flack for his X's and O's and game management at times in OKC, but I believe he was pretty crucial in player development of his young team. Thought he would be great for both Beal and Porter (Beal has looked like a straight stud lately) and now he has the Wizards playing pretty well.

[Greendaybum5]

Brooks got a lot of flack for his X's and O's and game management at times in OKC, but I believe he was pretty crucial in player development of his young team. Thought he would be great for both Beal and Porter (Beal has looked like a straight stud lately) and now he has the Wizards playing pretty well.

Wall is also playing the best bball of his career I feel like

[Spencer 555]

I think this is the wiz from the playoffs 2 years ago.

[Greendaybum5]

Spence if lowry leaves for Philly this offseason, where do you see raps finishing in eastern standings and where do you see sixers finishing?

[Spencer 555]

Without Lowry, the raptors are under 500. Sixers I think would finish near the top of the conf.

[Spencer 555]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2689493-joel-embiid-reacts-to-all-star-game-snub

Embiid is literally my favourite person.

[Serge]

Can we take a moment to appreciate the fact that I'm two inches taller than the guy ranked second in PPG in the NBA. I honestly don't recognize the world anymore.

[Spencer 555]

Lmfao! True.

[KBHoleN1]

Draymond Green put up a triple double tonight with only 4 points. Rebounds, assists, and 10 steals. Only triple double ever posted with fewer than 10 points. And he had 5 blocks too. That's crazy.

[|AFO|]

He's still a mouth breather and has intentionally hit people in the nuts on multiple occasions. Not a fan.

Wizards are playing damn good basketball ATM. If Wall could cut down on his TOs a bit, they could push for #2 in the east. D has started to step it up, especially in the 4th. If it wasn't for Lebron hitting 4 3's at the end of regulation, they'd have beaten the Cavs too. Wall didn't even play particularly well in that game and it seemed like the Cavs were hitting on all cylinders. Nice to see the Wizards competing at the top of the conference. They need a better bench though... Unfortunately I think the playoffs are going to be super boring. GSW sweeping their way to WCF and Cavs losing 1-2 to get to ECF. Probably only going to see 4-5 loses by those two into the ship.

[Spencer 555]

Cavs are really struggling lately. The east could be interesting this year if you buy it. Raps need to get our shit together.

[Greendaybum5]

Wow Ibaka to the Raps. How happy are you spencer??? If Raps had a chance this year they needed a player like him. I still don't think they beat Cleveland, but if Love misses beginning of playoffs then lookout.

[Spencer 555]

Duuuuuuude yes! This is exactly what we needed. I've been talking about moving Ross plus a pick for one of these PFs for awhile now haven't I? Fuck all u haters who doubted! Hahahaha. Not milsap, but ibaka is about as good as you can get for that price. I just hope he fits well next to JV. Might be a better natural fit with nogueira tbh. Either way he should get plenty of time next to both and 2pat.

[Spencer 555]

This might not be it either. Raptors have to be going for it this year with Lowry's contract expiring. We still have a 2017 first rounder, Demarre Carroll, cojo and sullingers expiring contract who are all pretty tradeable for someone looking to get a pick in this stacked draft.

[Spencer 555]

Was just looking through a list of potential wing players the raps might want and cojo is probably our best option at backup despite his struggles. Just gotta hope the kid figures it out I think.

Wesley Matthews could maybe be a fit, but I think the raps probably want to give norm the keys to the backup sg/SF position

[Spencer 555]

Wish I could call Masai ujiri and tell him to make this trade.

Jonas Valanciunas
Cory Joseph
Jared Sullinger
1st rnd pick

For

Eric Bledsoe
Tyson Chandler
PJ Tucker

Works on paper. Suns get JV and Joseph's good contracts and a first rounder, and get out of Tyson Chandler's limiting contract. Toronto gives up our second first round pick to fortify the "backup" PG position and gives insurance for Kyle Lowry if he wants to leave in free agency.

Raptors roster.

Pg: Lowry, Bledsoe, Wright, scrub
SG: Demar, Powell
SF: Demarre, Tucker
PF: Ibaka, Patterson, Caboclo
C: Chandler, Nogueira, Poeltl, Siakam

We would literally be able to keep every player on this roster next year other then one of Ibaka, Lowry and Patterson + PJ Tucker

Dream scenario:

Raptors make it to the nba finals only to be defeated by the GSW. Bledsoe accepts his role as a super 6th man and Kyle Lowry re-signs along with Ibaka in free agency. Patterson and Tucker however depart and I cry a little because Patterson will be missed. That being said, Caboclo steps up as the raptors backup PF and proves his draft day joke (2 years away from being 2 years away) right. The raptors replace the missing wing depth lost from PJ Tucker with old man Vince Carter and give Axel Toupane of the 905 a chance with the 15th roster spot.

2017/18 raptors opening day roster.

PG: Lowry, Bledsoe, Wright, VanVleet
SG: Derozan, Powell, Toupane
SF: Carroll, Carter
PF: Ibaka, Caboclo
C: Chandler, Nogueira, Poeltl, Siakam

The raptors win 65 games for the first time in franchise history and wins the 1st seed in the east with a combination of great depth and talent at every position. Vince plays the roll of mentor on the team and comes in every once in awhile whenever someone is injured. In limited minutes, Vince posterizes Triston Thompson, AL Horford and Marcin Gortat and raptors fans everywhere go completely nuts.

JV breaks out in a big way for the suns with more touches and minutes by putting up 17 ppg and 11 rebounds in 32 minutes per game. Along with young peices Devon Booker, Dragon Bender, Marquiese Chriss and new draft pick Lonzo Ball, the suns actually look like a semi competent team next year winning 28 games and failing to reach the playoffs. They use the Raptors draft pick to take C Jonathan Jeanne who spends most of his time in the Dleague where he hones his freakish athleticism and length to hopefully one day replace Valanciunas or be a viable backup. Cory Joseph replaces Brandon knight as backup PG as well and continues to be a respectable player in the league. He gets traded to the Cleveland Cavs for a first round draft pick and a scrub in December when LeBron starts crying for another ball handler.

The GSW win 73 games again, but are eliminated in the playoffs by a surging OKC team featuring league MVP Russel Westbrook who literally became 92/93 Jordan. Opening the door for the Raptors to win the NBA finals due to more age regression from LeBron James and a tired Westbrook. Raps win the NBA finals!

[KBHoleN1]

Kyrie Irving thinks the Earth is flat.

https://media3.giphy.com/media/dB2svH5EJ646s/giphy.gif

[Spencer 555]

All the more reason why Kyle Lowry is the better player.

[Greendaybum5]

spencer what were you smoking in that trade lol

why do the suns want JV when they have Alex Len?

[Spencer 555]

Same thing I smoke for every trade I post on this forum lol

[Spencer 555]

Also Alex Len is trash

[Zoticus]

So much drama in NY. If he was talking smack to the owner and was drunk then he deserved to get thrown out.

[Spencer 555]

Boogie to the pelis dayaaaaam. Can't believe he only got 1 first rounder.

[Greendaybum5]

The winners of that trade are the Sixers. Kings could seriously go into tank mode here and Sixers have swap rights on that pick. Also if Jrue decides to come back to Philly this offseason.... Woohoo!