For NBA fans

[The Professor]

Don't know how it's hard. Steph's ability created an offense that led a team to 73 wins. Think about that for a second.

Then, even though he wasn't 100%, his team was a Dray suspension from winning back to back titles. Durant for all his offensive brilliance and improved defense, doesn't impact the game the same way as Steph. So many people want to focus on Curry's defense as if invalidates his greatness overall and it shouldn't. He isn't a terrible defender; if he was you could attack him more but when teams do they aren't that successful.

If you don't want to call Curry the best player in the game, I'm cool with that. But he is the most impactful in a positive way, no worse than second.

[manonfire101]

Warriors were a Green suspension, or a group of officials who weren't calling a rugby game away from going back-to-back. Game was still physical tonight, but the Durant addition makes it a moot point. GS in 5 probably.

[The Professor]

Also, think of every great PG of the past. Magic, Stockton, Cousy, Kidd, Payton, Nash, Westbrook, Paul, Isaiah Thomas, Robertson...etc. Aside from Magic, would you really take any other PG over Curry right now?

[manonfire101]

Maybe Paul.

New Orleans Hornets Chris Paul.

[The Professor]

Warriors were a Green suspension, or a group of officials who weren't calling a rugby game away from going back-to-back. Game was still physical tonight, but the Durant addition makes it a moot point. GS in 5 probably.

Clevelands only chance is to make it a half court game. Last year pushing the pace was the right move, this year its the opposite. GS doesnt move the ball as well as last year, so it should lead to more contested shots with disciplined defense. Durant will make more than Harrison Barnes, but you have to live with that. Lue is to stupid though. Can't believe he's a head coach.

If Cleveland doesn't change things quick, 5 may be too generous.

EDIT: Hmm, 2008 Paul was deadly. He sliced SA up until he choked in Game 7.

[manonfire101]

Clevelands only chance is to make it a half court game. Last year pushing the pace was the right move, this year its the opposite. GS doesnt move the ball as well as last year, so it should lead to more contested shots with disciplined defense. Durant will make more than Harrison Barnes, but you have to live with that. Lue is to stupid though. Can't believe he's a head coach.

If Cleveland doesn't change things quick, 5 may be too generous.

EDIT: Hmm, 2008 Paul was deadly. He sliced SA up until he choked in Game 7.

The problem with that is I think a half-court game still favors GS because of KD. I don't know man, Golden State just looks like a better team. Cleveland can try to control the pace, but I don't think it will matter a lot. Their only chance is injuries/suspensions.

Lue is a result of LeBron not wanting to be coached. Lue is not a coach.

[The One]

Hey Serge, you still gonna call the Cavaliers winning in 5 or 6 games? Clown.

[manonfire101]

The Warriors are awesome, but can you stop being so obnoxious, TO? Is it really necessary to call Serge a clown? Why not just be excited about your team winning...

[The One]

Cavs in 6. Warriors too soft. What's a pack of jump chooters to a king?


The Warriors are awesome, but can you stop being so obnoxious, TO? Is it really necessary to call Serge a clown? Why not just be excited about your team winning...

Why not? I'll call you out when you fuck with my team. If you haven't figured that out by now I don't know what to tell you. I've gotten a shit ton of flack for being a Bay Area "homer". I'll gloat as much as I fucking want. Don't like it? Ignore me. It's a fucking video game forum.

[Serge]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201606020GSW.html

[Spencer 555]

It's like the chicken vs the egg argument with you TO lol.

In regards to the Steph vs Durant thing. You may be right prof about all this, but to be clear Steph is at best a net neutral on defense. He's not Steve Nash on that end, he's more John Stockton. Durant is a treat to watch on both ends and I'll give him the very slight edge over Curry.

And ya, I can't make much of an argument not to take curry over every all time great point guard not named magic (could make the argument over Magic too). Nash is my favourite all time player beside Vince, and Curry is essentially the exact same player stylistically as Nash if Nash decided fuck it I'm just gonna score. Part of me thinks Nash could have been better if he had come to that realisation that his shooting was beyond OP. I heard in an interview with someone from the sun's that they had to push him to take more shots in his mvp seasons because he was so unselfish with the ball.

[The One]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201606020GSW.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WAS/2016.html

[3000 stat]

I think I'm cheering for the Cavs now just cause TO is annoying.

[The Professor]

Refs have been horrible this game. Don't know how they miss that hold on Pachulia...instead of offensive foul like it should have been, 4 point play for Warriors.

Also, LeBron is a big flopper no doubt. Not tonight, and because he's not flopping Warriors have been getting away with a lot of calls.

[Spencer 555]

He's not crying enough lol

[Spencer 555]

Steph with the fucking dagger lol

[KBHoleN1]

JR Smith cries enough for everyone.

[KBHoleN1]

I'm watching the Finals on my brand new TV I got today. I've never had a picture this good.

[Spencer 555]

I'm on the golden State bandwagon until they win it this year. I hope they get the sweep so I win all my bets and so we can declare them the best team of all time. Then I'm gonna hate them moving forward.

[The One]

https://media.tenor.com/images/d48c7b8540599b9d7b1fd4ccb3bca0c1/tenor.gif

[rainblade]

The Warriors are too good. Durant is the anti-Lebron.

[Spencer 555]

Lol anti LeBron? Jesus man, Durant couldn't beat LeBron and choked against curry when he was on okc.. Durant shouldn't be getting that much props. He's a beast, but if anyone's the anti anything, lebron' s the anti Durant lol

[Greendaybum5]

Lol anti LeBron? Jesus man, Durant couldn't beat LeBron and choked against curry when he was on okc.. Durant shouldn't be getting that much props. He's a beast, but if anyone's the anti anything, lebron' s the anti Durant lol

Durant is the reason the Warriors will win this year.... I think that's what Cliche meant.

[Maverik]

(he wasn't talking to TO)

[Greendaybum5]

(he wasn't talking to TO)

corrected thanks. habit to refer to TO when talking about GSW lol

[Duraza]

Go Supersonics!

[Spencer 555]

Durant is the reason the Warriors will win this year.... I think that's what Cliche meant.

That's pretty bs imo. I'd take last year's gsw over the cavs 99 times out of 100 but they lost because curry was playing injured and Draymond got suspended.

I'll give Durant props for being an amazing player.. probably the best player in the game right now, but replace Durant with barnes this year and the warriors still win this series. Durant makes them unstoppable, he isn't the reason they are elite.

[KBHoleN1]

Yeah, people really underestimate the impact of Curry's injury last year. He was garbage in the Finals. Curry/Klay/Green and a healthy Iguaodala this year could beat the Cavs in 6. Last year was flukey, and the Cavs played lights out to take advantage of it. Durant makes them basically invincible.

[Greendaybum5]

That's pretty bs imo. I'd take last year's gsw over the cavs 99 times out of 100 but they lost because curry was playing injured and Draymond got suspended.

I'll give Durant props for being an amazing player.. probably the best player in the game right now, but replace Durant with barnes this year and the warriors still win this series. Durant makes them unstoppable, he isn't the reason they are elite.


Yeah, people really underestimate the impact of Curry's injury last year. He was garbage in the Finals. Curry/Klay/Green and a healthy Iguaodala this year could beat the Cavs in 6. Last year was flukey, and the Cavs played lights out to take advantage of it. Durant makes them basically invincible.

Respectfully disagree. You could make the argument that GSW was lucky to make finals after OKC fell apart. I don't get why LBJ gets so much hate/disrespect. He's a top 2 player of all time. GSW beat Cleveland the first time because Love and Irving were hurt, but no one ever mentions that lol.

[Spencer 555]

I'm not dismissing any of what u just said there Philly.

OKC was better last year then the cavs imo (certainly debateable or on par with them) and I think they would have beat the cavs in 7. GSW shoulda lost to OKC but Durant and Westbrook choked hard.

In 2015 LeBron carried the cavs to 2 wins against a super elite warriors team (that was not quite as good as the 2016 version just yet but the main pieces were all there obviously) and deserves all the respect in the world for accomplishing that feat and also for beating the warriors last year. I rank him as the 2nd best player of all time for those 2 specific reasons (I hated him on miami).

My only contention is that Love and Kyrie are not the supporting cast that you and others around the league and in the media make them out to be. Kyrie is an incredibly talented 1v1 iso player. His court vision is below average for a point guard, he's among the worst defenders in the league, he takes a lot of plays off on defense despite being the #2 option, he lacks hustle unless the ball is in his hands and he's not great off the ball despite having a wicked shooting stroke. All of that and he thinks the world is flat so I certainly question his IQ. Literally the only value this dude brings to the table against the warriors is handling the ball competently once in awhile so that LeBron can rest a minute on the court. Love on the other hand is arguably more valuable to the cavs then kyrie offensively, but hes soft in the paint and too slow to keep up with the warriors on defense. He can't guard a single player on the warriors at any given point including the offensively limited Green. These 2 players don't add as much to the cavs as people think (especially in this matchup). It's literally the LeBron show against the warriors and it's absolutely amazing to me that the cavs can keep up. So no, I do not discount Lebrons greatness at all, I may even appreciate it more then you do.

[Spencer 555]

Try to debate this statement:

Without LeBron the cavs would struggle to make the playoffs.

Without Love and Irving the cavs would probably still make the NBA finals.

[Sanosuke]

Without love and irving the cavs would not make the finals.

[Spencer 555]

This year? I think they'd have a pretty decent chance man.

PG: Williams
SG: JR Smith
SF: Kyle Korver
PF: LBJ
C: Tristan Thompson

Bench: Jefferson, Shumpert, Frye

That's at least on par with the other teams imo.

[Greendaybum5]

Try to debate this statement:

Without LeBron the cavs would struggle to make the playoffs.

Without Love and Irving the cavs would probably still make the NBA finals.

LBJ is good enough to take ANY NBA team in the East and make the playoffs. I'd be willing to say he could probably do that in the West as well.

[Spencer 555]

Ya, he'd at least get the 8th seed in the West with the Lakers or suns. More likely hed get the 6th seed. Don't think he'd definitely pass Utah or the clippers.

[Sanosuke]

This year? I think they'd have a pretty decent chance man.

PG: Williams
SG: JR Smith
SF: Kyle Korver
PF: LBJ
C: Tristan Thompson

Bench: Jefferson, Shumpert, Frye

That's at least on par with the other teams imo.


LBJ is good enough to take ANY NBA team in the East and make the playoffs. I'd be willing to say he could probably do that in the West as well.


Ya, he'd at least get the 8th seed in the West with the Lakers or suns. More likely hed get the 6th seed. Don't think he'd definitely pass Utah or the clippers.

Your question was the finals, not playoffs. LeBron isn't beating the Celtics or the wizards with that team you have there. Thompson doesn't do anything on offense. JR is a liability on offense. Kyle korver can't create his own looks.

[Greendaybum5]

Your question was the finals, not playoffs. LeBron isn't beating the Celtics or the wizards with that team you have there. Thompson doesn't do anything on offense. JR is a liability on offense. Kyle korver can't create his own looks.

my response to him he used playoffs hence my answer

[Hulky]

Where is Kevin Durant going to be next year? Does he stay with the Warriors if he gets a ring? If he does and the Warriors (win this year) and return again next how does the Warriors 4 year stretch compare to historic teams? BBall nooby here.

[KBHoleN1]

Where is Kevin Durant going to be next year? Does he stay with the Warriors if he gets a ring? If he does and the Warriors (win this year) and return again next how does the Warriors 4 year stretch compare to historic teams? BBall nooby here.

Beep soaps on der griffty.

[Greendaybum5]

Where is Kevin Durant going to be next year? Does he stay with the Warriors if he gets a ring? If he does and the Warriors (win this year) and return again next how does the Warriors 4 year stretch compare to historic teams? BBall nooby here.

Problem is Curry is due to get paid in addition. They're not going to be able to keep the Big 4 plus that supporting cast together without people taking big pay cuts.

KD will stay in GS on another 2 year deal with option after 1st year is my prediction.

[Hulky]

Is there a salary cap in the NBA?

[Spencer 555]

Yup but it's pretty complex. Long story short, the golden State warriors are going to have all 5 key players (big 4 plus iggy) returning next year, but they'll have minimal wiggle room to sign anyone else.

[Spencer 555]

Your question was the finals, not playoffs. LeBron isn't beating the Celtics or the wizards with that team you have there. Thompson doesn't do anything on offense. JR is a liability on offense. Kyle korver can't create his own looks.

I disagree on the Celtics for sure. Thompson can be a big positive on the offensive glass against any lineup the Celts use and he's enough of a roll threat to force coverage. JR, Korver and Shump are all pretty interchangeable pieces as 3 and D players and wouldn't be expected to do anything with the ball considering LeBron would have the ball 99% of the time SO the only liability is that all 3 might be extremely cold at any given time from three and LeBron will have to find creative ways to keep them engaged. Regardless, all three are competent wing defenders against the Celtics and wizards guards. The only issue I see is bron getting tired due to the lack of a backup point guard but he's shown he can a heavier load when he needs to. There's enough talent there (More then okc behind westbrook) to at least compete with the Celts and wiz. Still think the raps would be the toughest test in the east fully healthy.

[Sanosuke]

Once again, they wouldn't make the finals. Considering the fact that you immediately went to Tristan Thompson literally only rebounding again is a big reason why. Shump is trash. JR Smith is not a 3 and D player... he averages like 2 3's point FGs that hit the bottom of the net a game. And Lebron could have the ball 100% of the time for 48 minutes. They're not making the finals without Love and Irving.

EDIT: JR smith isn't even a starting caliber basketball player.

[Spencer 555]

That's all Tristan Thompson adds on offense so are you really surprised that's what I went to? He's a long athletic dude with an elite talent for offensive rebounding (and I mean elite as in he'd make Horford, Olynyk and the Celtics 30th ranked defensive rebounding his bitch). He may not be a post scorer or shooter, but hes extremely high energy and he does an excellent job cleaning up JR smiths 3-4 missed threes a game that you're so concerned with lol. I'm sorry but I think the cavs would crush the Celtics with or without love and Kyrie and Thompson is the biggest reason (offensively and defensively) this side of LeBron that I have faith in that statement. Against the raps and wizards, simply based on matchups not skill (Celts smacked the wizards so the skill is similar), id probably agree that the cavs without love and Kyrie would have a hard time.

[Spencer 555]

Also: I think you're crazy that you think JR doesn't belong in the NBA. The dude is at least a top 10 sg in the league despite his inconsistency.

[Sanosuke]

I'm considering with him missing threes because they're wasted possessions because he's not a 3 and D player like you called him. Taking Westbrook out the rebounding totals, Thompson is barely in the top half of the league in rebounding. It's insane that you even brought up Shumpert. Lebron James is an incredible player, but he's not dragging the Cavs over the Wiz, Celtics, Raps at all.

[Spencer 555]

Lol it's insane that you think Smith isn't a 3 and D player. He consistently hits 40% from three every year on spot up attempts and plays above average wing defense. His only issue is inconsistency and that's been cut down a ton since joining the cavs because LeBron keeps him as level as that dude possibly can be.

Also the fact that you don't think Tristan Thompson is an elite offensive rebounder is exposing you're basketball knowledge. He's literally top 5 every year in oreb% among NBA starters (bench players play against weaker opponents and even then he ranks in the top 10 every year). I'm not saying Thompson or Smith are excellent players, but they're both NBA starters with defined roles.

Oh and shumpert would probably start on a lot of NBA teams too. So there's that.

[Sanosuke]

Lol it's insane that you think Smith isn't a 3 and D player. He consistently hits 40% from three every year on spot up attempts and plays above average wing defense. His only issue is inconsistency and that's been cut down a ton since joining the cavs because LeBron keeps him as level as that dude possibly can be.

Also the fact that you don't think Tristan Thompson is an elite offensive rebounder is exposing you're basketball knowledge. He's literally top 5 every year in oreb% among NBA starters (bench players play against weaker opponents and even then he ranks in the top 10 every year). I'm not saying Thompson or Smith are excellent players, but they're both NBA starters with defined roles.

Oh and shumpert would probably start on a lot of NBA teams too. So there's that.

I said rebounder, not oREB. Yes he's a great offensive rebounder. Shumpert is not a starter. That dude has started more than have a season and averaged more than half a game's worth of minutes in previous seasons and is only averaging like 8 points. His stretch for the Knicks as poop. If he would be a starter on any other team, he'd be there by now and starting. But he isn't, so he's not. JR Smith hits 2 threes a game. He contributes like, 2 more FGs and like a couple FTs a game and that's it. You're citing all this defense and oREB but it's adding up to maybe like, 2-3 possessions. They simply will not outscore anyone without Irving and Love. Period.

Your entire argument was would the Cavs make the finals without Love and Irving, not how great of role players Thompson, Smith and Shumpert are.

The only thing that's being exposed is how air-headed you are because your circle of friends outside of the forums probably don't understand sports and you think you know everything under the sun about them.

[Spencer 555]

In regards to shump: he's not a starter on the cavs and he wasn't a starter on the Knicks. You're right. But imo he has developed into a role that he excels at with the cavs and I think smart teams would recognize that skill. I didn't say Shump would start for any other team, I just said that he COULD start for a lot of other NBA teams in his current role. I don't think Courtney Lee is better then shumpert for example.

In regards to thompson. My whole argument as to why Thompson would crush the Celtics on offense was because of his offensive rebounding talent and you're rebuttal was that he wasn't that good of a rebounder. Don't backtrack lol. Here's how the convo has gone in my eyes:

You: Thompson is an offensive liability
Me: against the Celtics, Thompson's offensive rebounding would make him a huge positive on that end... and he's really not that bad on offense; just limited.
You: Thompson isn't that good at rebounding.
Me: yea he is? Wtf?
You: I meant rebounding in general, not simply offensive rebounding
Me: backtracking?

In regards to your statement critiquing my "entire argument": my argument is pointless if I don't make a case for Thompson and the other cavs role players. How am I supposed to prove to you that the cavs would make the finals without love and Kyrie without highlighting the cavs role players and stating reasons why they would matchup well against the east. Am I just supposed to be like "Oh true ur right what was I thinking, silly me"?

In regards to you questioning my social circle: ...

[The Professor]

It's not that simple Sano. If you take Love and Irving out, that gives you about 35-40 more shots to distribute to other players. While they aren't as individually talented as those 2, role players can usually play better with better rhythm (easy to play better when you know you're getting shots) and when you have LeBron, he can generate a lot of open shots for teammates to further enhance their value. That is not something debatable, LeBron has literally done this multiple times throughout his career. Also, with a LeBron heavy offense, his teams tend to focus more on defense, which hasn't been great the past two years, especially this year. The team he took to the finals without Love and Irving hobbled was pretty great defensively.

I don't think LeBron without Irving and Love makes the finals in the east, but it's debatable. And that's pretty impressive.

[Spencer 555]

Cavs vs Celtics love/irvingless prof?

[Spencer 555]

LeBron goes to the bench and the cavs start to fall apart instantly lol.

[Spencer 555]

Korver dunk!? Awesome

[KBHoleN1]

Bahahahahaha, what a choke job by the Cavs. Irving dribbles the ball into the ground and takes a bad shot instead of trying for a 2 for 1. Then they let GS burn half the remaining time and fail to foul Green when he caught the ball. Then James gets stripped and turns it over.

Watching this game, I can't help but notice how many fouls get committed on every play. So much pushing and grabbing and slapping, it's such a crapshoot when the refs actually call something. How do they decide which push-off to call? Because there's always a push-off if a rebound is up for grabs. This is why the NBA is so sloppy, because players are breaking the rules on every play and gambling that the refs won't call it that time. And it's not even subtle bumping and leaning like the old physical eras, it's just blatant fouling. It looks ugly.

[The One]

Warriors baby! Even when the Cavs are at full throttle they can't capitalize enough for a win against this team.

Where's my bitch Serge at? Clowning around somewhere I'm sure.

[Spencer 555]

@kb the cavs felt they needed to play more physical vs the warriors, it wasn't quote as ugly in the first 2 games. Tbh I really enjoyed the game, I love watching ugly basketball lol. Get pissed when they even call the shitty ticky tack stuff.

[Serge]

Now that the Warriors are up 3-0 would it be a bitch move to switch sides and root for the Warriors?

[Spencer 555]

Naw. Join the bandwagon.

[The Butcher]

Warriors def gonna make history

first team to lose a 3-0 series lead twice

:)

[KBHoleN1]

The Warriors weren't up 3-0 last year, it was 2-0, then 2-1, then 3-1. And no NBA team has ever lost a playoff series after being up 3-0 (like 126-0 IIRC). This team sure isn't going to be the one to do it.

[The Butcher]

I guess I should watch more basketballs

[KBHoleN1]

Also, I'm sure Durant is going to win Finals MVP because of what he's doing, but please don't forget how important Steph is to this team. People like to bag on him whenever they get a chance, but he makes the whole thing tick. Remember the multiple times in Game 1 where Cleveland left the lane wide open for Durant to dunk because they were too busy trying to cover Steph for a 3? Take a look at the plus-minus for the series:



Player
+/-
Total Minutes


Curry
52
110


Green
40
94


Durant
37
119


Thompson
35
114


Iguodala
33
82


Pachulia
16
41



Plus-minus isn't all that matters, obviously. But it's interesting that Curry can separate himself from Durant's tally so much despite them being on the floor together so often.

[Sanosuke]

It's not that simple Sano. If you take Love and Irving out, that gives you about 35-40 more shots to distribute to other players. While they aren't as individually talented as those 2, role players can usually play better with better rhythm (easy to play better when you know you're getting shots) and when you have LeBron, he can generate a lot of open shots for teammates to further enhance their value. That is not something debatable, LeBron has literally done this multiple times throughout his career. Also, with a LeBron heavy offense, his teams tend to focus more on defense, which hasn't been great the past two years, especially this year. The team he took to the finals without Love and Irving hobbled was pretty great defensively.

I don't think LeBron without Irving and Love makes the finals in the east, but it's debatable. And that's pretty impressive.

So you think that people who are intentionally made role players are good enough to produce enough to make up for the absence of Irving and Love if they were full time starters? If this was the case then they wouldn't be role players.

[KBHoleN1]

More to the Steph point:

Steph Curry is averaging 28.7 PPG, 9.7 RPG and 9.0 APG in the Finals and might not sniff Finals MVP. - from Micah Adams

[The Professor]

So you think that people who are intentionally made role players are good enough to produce enough to make up for the absence of Irving and Love if they were full time starters? If this was the case then they wouldn't be role players.

Normally no. LeBron changes things dramatically though. He makes everybody better not only with his passing, but his ability to draw the entire defense's attention. Plus there are a lot of other nuances that go into it.

Kyrie would also be a lot better, but he's kinda stupid, or rather takes a lot of stupid shots. The Warriors were like this before Steve Kerr, once they cleaned that up they took off.

[The Professor]

More to the Steph point:

Steph Curry is averaging 28.7 PPG, 9.7 RPG and 9.0 APG in the Finals and might not sniff Finals MVP. - from Micah Adams

I've argued Steph is the most important player hands down and it's still true. Durant will win MVP though because not only does he have great numbers, but he had his moment in the 4 th quarter of game 3.

[Spencer 555]

How's this for mvp deserving.

In 46 minutes with LeBron on the floor the cavs were a +7. In 2 minutes with LeBron sitting, the cavs were -12.

[Spencer 555]

Also, Durant looked pretty bad last night other then the 4th quarter. I'd say he has a way to go still before we start talking about him as the best player in the league. Been pretty annoyed with all the hype in the media the last few days about Durant.

That cliche comment got me triggered lol.

[Saint]

Who does Cleveland add to the team in the future to try and combat GS?

Get rid of love and the bench and add quicker defenders?

[Greendaybum5]

Also: I think you're crazy that you think JR doesn't belong in the NBA. The dude is at least a top 10 sg in the league despite his inconsistency.

This is purely off top of my head, in no order at all. But i'd take each of them over JR Smith

Thompson, Reddick, Bradley, Beal, Derozan, Fournier, Bazemore, Lou Williams, McCollum, Wiggins, Zach Levine, Clarkson, Booker, Wade, Roberson, Waiters, KCP. That's not counting guys like Harden, PG13, Bledsoe who all play off the ball some times. I'm sure i missed a few too.

[Greendaybum5]

Also, I'm sure Durant is going to win Finals MVP because of what he's doing, but please don't forget how important Steph is to this team. People like to bag on him whenever they get a chance, but he makes the whole thing tick. Remember the multiple times in Game 1 where Cleveland left the lane wide open for Durant to dunk because they were too busy trying to cover Steph for a 3? Take a look at the plus-minus for the series:



Player
+/-
Total Minutes


Curry
52
110


Green
40
94


Durant
37
119


Thompson
35
114


Iguodala
33
82


Pachulia
16
41



Plus-minus isn't all that matters, obviously. But it's interesting that Curry can separate himself from Durant's tally so much despite them being on the floor together so often.

You have to remember the difference though. Who is Durant guarding compared to who is Curry guarding.

[Greendaybum5]

Also: I think you're crazy that you think JR doesn't belong in the NBA. The dude is at least a top 10 sg in the league despite his inconsistency.


Who does Cleveland add to the team in the future to try and combat GS?

Get rid of love and the bench and add quicker defenders?

lots of rumors of Melo heading there ona smaller contract. Tons of rumors on Philly radio about Porzingis and Melo to Sixers with Melo accepting because Sixers will buy him out and let him go to Cleveland.

Also heard rumblings of PG13, but not as likely imo.

[Spencer 555]

This is purely off top of my head, in no order at all. But i'd take each of them over JR Smith

Thompson, Reddick, Bradley, Beal, Derozan, Fournier, Bazemore, Lou Williams, McCollum, Wiggins, Zach Levine, Clarkson, Booker, Wade, Roberson, Waiters, KCP. That's not counting guys like Harden, PG13, Bledsoe who all play off the ball some times. I'm sure i missed a few too.

I was kinda speaking about sg in its purest form. A lot of those guys are combo guards/sf.

That being said the state of sg isn't great in the league (I think I specified that) and I see what your saying.

I don't think I'd take Clarkson or reddick over him, but reddick may just have had a down season. Levine and waiters I'm not sold on over Smith either, but probably would prefer them over Smith in a bench scoring role.

[Greendaybum5]

Also: I think you're crazy that you think JR doesn't belong in the NBA. The dude is at least a top 10 sg in the league despite his inconsistency.


I was kinda speaking about sg in its purest form. A lot of those guys are combo guards/sf.

That being said the state of sg isn't great in the league (I think I specified that) and I see what your saying.

I don't think I'd take Clarkson or reddick over him, but reddick may just have had a down season. Levine and waiters I'm not sold on over Smith either, but probably would prefer them over Smith in a bench scoring role.

once again not looking this up, but i think reddick is coming off one of his best seasons ever. and remember we're talking about JR smith in his current state not 5 years ago.

[Spencer 555]

Naw reddick regressed both offensively and defensively this year. He's probably right there with Smith in terms of value though.

[KBHoleN1]

Naw reddick regressed both offensively and defensively this year. He's probably right there with Smith in terms of value though.

Man, Spencer, what are you talking about? Do you have stats to back this up, or are you just guessing?



JJ Redick
PER
TS%
WS
WS/48
BPM
VORP



2014-15
16.2
.622
6.7
.134
0.7
1.6


2015-16
17.5
.632
6.7
.154
0.8
1.5


2016-17
14.8
.599
4.8
.105
0.0
1.1





JR Smith
PER
TS%
WS
WS/48
BPM
VORP



2014-15
13.6
.538
3.7
.085
0.7
1.4


2015-16
12.4
.542
5.5
.111
1.3
2.0


2016-17
8.1
.484
0.8
.034
-1.3
0.2



Now which player regressed this year?

[Spencer 555]

Smith was injured the entire year rofl

[Spencer 555]

To put some things in perspective, here are the playoff numbers for both players (considering Smith is just getting healthy)

Reddick: ws: 0 ws/48: -.011 PER: 4.9 BPM: -3.5 TPA: -13.5

Smith: ws: .6 ws/48: 0.71 PER: 7.8 BPM: 1.4 TPA: 11.74

Smith is considerably better then reddick in this playoffs and if you look at the playoffs last year he was considerably better then too. Smith was not nearly as good as he was for the cavs in the 2016 playoffs this year, but he's arguably better then reddick because of his defense on the perimeter alone (reddick is certainly below average).

I watched every game of the clippers and jazz series and reddick was pretty damn bad so that's where I might be a bit biased in saying Smith is better overall, but I don't think it's a stretch at all.

[KBHoleN1]

Yes, Redick had a bad playoff series. The Jazz specifically tried to cover him up and make other people take shots, and he's not good enough to create his own most of the time.

But you didn't say playoffs originally, and you should have if that's the point you were trying to make. Also, JR didn't start so well in the playoffs, and didn't contribute much until the Boston series. And no one game plans for JR Smith, he gets open looks every time he touches the floor because of LeBron and Love and Irving. Without Griffin, the Clippers begin to hurt for offensive weapons and it makes it easier for the Jazz to stick with Redick and not give him looks. I don't think comparing JR's situation to Redick's this postseason is very accurate.

On a team like the Cavs, a shooter like Redick should be deadly. But then you wonder why Korver didn't have a better year, or at least a better playoffs.

[Greendaybum5]

Can't compare the Cavs cake walk to finals same way as Clippers in playoffs.

[Spencer 555]

Yes, Redick had a bad playoff series. The Jazz specifically tried to cover him up and make other people take shots, and he's not good enough to create his own most of the time.

But you didn't say playoffs originally, and you should have if that's the point you were trying to make. Also, JR didn't start so well in the playoffs, and didn't contribute much until the Boston series. And no one game plans for JR Smith, he gets open looks every time he touches the floor because of LeBron and Love and Irving. Without Griffin, the Clippers begin to hurt for offensive weapons and it makes it easier for the Jazz to stick with Redick and not give him looks. I don't think comparing JR's situation to Redick's this postseason is very accurate.

On a team like the Cavs, a shooter like Redick should be deadly. But then you wonder why Korver didn't have a better year, or at least a better playoffs.

Fair points, but I have a few things I don't really agree with.

Firstly, my initial post was pointing out that reddick was worst then Smith (now) because of a performance regression that occured this season. You refuted that by pointing out that he was quite a bit more productive then Smith was this year while also highlighting that reddick was still a productive player. My post about reddick in the playoffs was simply to point out that the skill erosion was very much real and he struggled big-time in a situation where he could have been impactful in the same role as Smith, but wasn't. He was a huge negative for the clips and maybe the biggest reason they lost to a less talented group (debateable) in utah. I could have also argued my point by pointing out that reddick scored less points on more shots this regular season and was a lot less efficient, but I used the postseason stats to compare the two players because I felt it was more glaring. I wasn't trying to specifically argue using the playoffs.

Secondly, I agree that reddick is in a different situation on the clippers then Smith is on the cavs, aka Smith probably sees more open shots with the cavs surrounded by LeBron and other formidable shooters, but let's not pretend reddick doesn't get open shots surrounded by Chris Paul the point god and Deandre Jordan. Also, I'll concede that Utah is essentially the worst matchup offensively for a spot up shooter because of their suffocating defense and ability to guard the 3 point line, but I won't concede that it would have affected reddick as much last year. Last year Reddick was a huge factor in the success of the clippers while Blake was out and there were many people clamoring for a Blake trade because of how well the clippers played without him. Many stats guys i read estimated that the clips were better off with blake on the bench because of the impressive results. Reddick being highlighted in the offense a bit more and the clips running plays for him was opening the floor up for Paul and Deandre to work their pick n roll magic instead of having Blake clog the paint up with his still developing post and iso game. That never really happened this year despite running the same plays for him and him getting just as many open shots. At times he did well, but overwhelmingly he was a dud this season and his struggles were highlighted in the playoffs in a bad matchup. I'll admit reddick could bounce back next season and prove he is a better player then Smith, but he's 32 years old and to me it looked like he hit a wall towards the end of the season. So ya, I just don't really agree with the notion that Blake being healthy would have created a better situation for Reddick, and without being much better then Smith offensively, I would rather the defensively competent Smith.

Disclaimer: I might be letting Smith off the hook because of his injury, but I would point to that for him starting the postseason slowly and coming along as of late. He's been pretty bad in this golden State series tbh.

[KBHoleN1]

to me it looked like he hit a wall towards the end of the season

Go look at his game logs and tell me the end of the regular season wasn't the best ball he played all year. He was averaging more points per game and shooting higher percentages across the board (53% from 3 his last 7 games). You have this opinion of him based off of the playoff series and now you're expanding your argument to include vague feelings and hunches without providing any proof. Why do you think he hit a wall? Because he had a bad playoff series. Utah is a bad matchup. His regular season games were so-so against Utah, and his playoff games were bad. I think he's a better shooter and more valuable than JR Smith, especially on a team like the Cavs.

[Spencer 555]

Can't argue any of that dude. Kudos for digging up those game logs and making my opinion seem foolish. Honestly didn't base my opinion on a hunch though, more on podcasts suggesting reddick wasn't the same player as he was last year (toward the end of the year) and then witnessing it first hand against Utah. That being said, I never claimed Smith was a better shooter then reddick, just that I would prefer the defense smith provides and that the value reddick provides on offense isn't enough (unless he's shooting the lights out consistently) to make up for that.

[KBHoleN1]

Why are Cavs fans such awful people?

[bludhoundz]

shame they're not gonna get swept

[KBHoleN1]

Cavs shooting better from 3 than they are from 2. Everything that didn't fall in games 1-3 is going in now.

[Hulky]

First Warriors game I watched this year, I won't watch the next one. My bad for cursing it.

[Serge]

Why are Cavs fans such awful people?

Missed the game what did they do?

[Hugh]

First Warriors game I watched this year, I won't watch the next one. My bad for cursing it.

They were up 3-0 last year. Did you curse them then, too?
You must be a wizard.

[Demicos]

If they come back now the NBA is scripted.

[KBHoleN1]

Missed the game what did they do?

Some guy sitting court side got kicked out. Not sure if he said something specific, or tried to enter the court, or what. During one stoppage on play to review a foul. It was really chippy, and the fans were booing most everything. I kept noticing some big sweaty d-bag sitting front row under the basket who would jump out of his seat to holler at the Warriors if they missed a shot or turned it over. The look on his face reminded me of the Yankees fan who interfered with that fly ball in an O's (?) game and then kept waving his arms mocking the outfielder who he interfered with. Fans in general seem to think they're important enough to argue with athletes over their performance and it kind of ticks me off.

[Demicos]

Some guy sitting court side got kicked out. Not sure if he said something specific, or tried to enter the court, or what. During one stoppage on play to review a foul. It was really chippy, and the fans were booing most everything. I kept noticing some big sweaty d-bag sitting front row under the basket who would jump out of his seat to holler at the Warriors if they missed a shot or turned it over. The look on his face reminded me of the Yankees fan who interfered with that fly ball in an O's (?) game and then kept waving his arms mocking the outfielder who he interfered with. Fans in general seem to think they're important enough to argue with athletes over their performance and it kind of ticks me off.

Well, they wouldn't have a job without the fans. ​/s

[Spencer 555]

True, but that doesn't mean some fans aren't annoying entitled idiots lol

[Sanosuke]

Normally no. LeBron changes things dramatically though. He makes everybody better not only with his passing, but his ability to draw the entire defense's attention. Plus there are a lot of other nuances that go into it.

Kyrie would also be a lot better, but he's kinda stupid, or rather takes a lot of stupid shots. The Warriors were like this before Steve Kerr, once they cleaned that up they took off.

For as amazing as LeBron is an how he changes the entire game the second he steps on the court, other players aren't going to be all-star caliber players just because of him. See: his first cavs team. You could argue that he didn't know what he does now or wasn't the player he is now but I still think it's moot. If X player is a role player, chosen to be a role player, and was not asked intentionally to play a bigger part other than their given role, then there's absolutely no reason to assume in a vacuum that if they start next to LeBron they're higher than a replacement level basketball player. This is proven by how productive they aren't even when they share the court with LeBron in their limited fashion.

[Spencer 555]

I agree there sano, but I mean LeBron + a bunch of scrubs has made the finals before and imo the depth on the team around him without love and Irving is better then say Anderson varejao and zidronas ilgauskas lol.

[Sanosuke]

Yes but the talent in the east compared to his run with his first cavs team compared to now is much lower. If the first LeBron Cavs played in this year's east theyd get rolled up

[Spencer 555]

Ya that's true. God that east was so shit. Basketball in general was in such bad shape back then imo. Maybe it's just me but were pretty spoiled with all the elite talent in the game right now.

[The Professor]

For as amazing as LeBron is an how he changes the entire game the second he steps on the court, other players aren't going to be all-star caliber players just because of him. See: his first cavs team. You could argue that he didn't know what he does now or wasn't the player he is now but I still think it's moot. If X player is a role player, chosen to be a role player, and was not asked intentionally to play a bigger part other than their given role, then there's absolutely no reason to assume in a vacuum that if they start next to LeBron they're higher than a replacement level basketball player. This is proven by how productive they aren't even when they share the court with LeBron in their limited fashion.

Mo Williams 2009.

And obviously that's just one instance, but while he may not make them "all star" level, he still makes them good enough to compete that it's more than debatable that he can carry a team to the Finals. Not saying he will, but it's not an outlandish claim. Which is incredible in itself.

[Greendaybum5]

I'd also like to add Tristan Thompson to that list. Put him on virtually any other team and he doesn't get the big extension Cleveland gave him.

[KBHoleN1]

I've never seen a basketball player take as many bullets in a game as LeBron does. Ow, he shot me. Oh, right in the back. Aaah, I'm dying!

[Serge]

If Durant gets a ring like this we should make his birthday National Punkbitch Day.

[Serge]

Remember kids, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

[KBHoleN1]

Someone get this man some tissues.

[The One]

WARRIORS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fuck this is amazing. Dynasty in the making if they can keep the core 4 around.


If Durant gets a ring like this we should make his birthday National Punkbitch Day.


Remember kids, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Cry yourself to sleep bitch! Durant didn't want to join the washed up Wizards. Sorry. qq

[Serge]

Every great NBA dynasty has had that pivotal moment where upon realizing that their initial strategy of praying all four teams they face in the playoffs have all-star level players out due to injury isn't going to work every year they pray that the second best player in the league is a big enough bitch with zero competitive spirit that he'll sign with them in free agency hoping for an easy ring. Textbook.

Also, I remember that moment in Michael Jordan's career when frustrated about losing to the Bad Boy Pistons he signed with them in free agency the next year.

[KBHoleN1]

Every great NBA dynasty has had that pivotal moment where upon realizing that their initial strategy of praying all four teams they face in the playoffs have all-star level players out due to injury isn't going to work every year they pray that the second best player in the league is a big enough bitch with zero competitive spirit that he'll sign with them in free agency hoping for an easy ring. Textbook.

Also, I remember that moment in Michael Jordan's career when frustrated about losing to the Bad Boy Pistons he signed with them in free agency the next year.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on LeBron's Decision and the super-team he formed so he could return to Cleveland.

[manonfire101]

I think it's hypocritical for any Cleveland fans or LeBron fans to criticize Durant for leaving OKC when James did the same thing much more obnoxiously joining the Heat and then rejoining the Cavs. LeBron is the champion of the if-you-can't-beat-them-join-them mentality.
I do think he's still the best player in the NBA, though.

[The Butcher]

just read that the entire team unanimously voted to skip visiting Trump

so they won twice in like 2 days

[Hulky]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlBAtb3sxPo

This is pretty sick from years ago, but kind hard to root against guys like that.

[Greendaybum5]

I think it's hypocritical for any Cleveland fans or LeBron fans to criticize Durant for leaving OKC when James did the same thing much more obnoxiously joining the Heat and then rejoining the Cavs. LeBron is the champion of the if-you-can't-beat-them-join-them mentality.
I do think he's still the best player in the NBA, though.

LBJ is more the founder of it haha. I also would be interested to see the Cavs team if they kept Wiggins instead of trading for Love. They'd have the money to have a 4th stud then too.

[Serge]

The difference is that the Heat weren't a super team without LeBron. He is what made that team a super team. He also didn't blow a 3-1 lead in the ECF against the Heat just months before going there. I wasn't happy about the move when it happened but it wasn't a punk move.

The Warriors were already the best team before Durant. Y'all and Durant must watch the Karate Kid and wonder why Daniel doesn't join the Cobra Kai dojo.

[Spencer 555]

My opinion: LeBron is just as big a bitch as Durant, but ultimately is the king and the best player we've seen since Jordan and Durant is gonna go down in history as a loser to me. I love the warriors other then Durant though. Draymond and curry are fucking awesome lol.

[The One]

Every great NBA dynasty has had that pivotal moment where upon realizing that their initial strategy of praying all four teams they face in the playoffs have all-star level players out due to injury isn't going to work every year they pray that the second best player in the league is a big enough bitch with zero competitive spirit that he'll sign with them in free agency hoping for an easy ring. Textbook.

Also, I remember that moment in Michael Jordan's career when frustrated about losing to the Bad Boy Pistons he signed with them in free agency the next year.


The difference is that the Heat weren't a super team without LeBron. He is what made that team a super team. He also didn't blow a 3-1 lead in the ECF against the Heat just months before going there. I wasn't happy about the move when it happened but it wasn't a punk move.

The Warriors were already the best team before Durant. Y'all and Durant must watch the Karate Kid and wonder why Daniel doesn't join the Cobra Kai dojo.

It's okay to be jealous. Whine a little more and maybe Durant will hear you.

[|AFO|]

Whelp... There goes one of the most exciting seasons of all time. Surprise surprise, the best team of last year that added the 2nd best player won the championship. We had a total of 4/14 entertaining series that didn't matter. Can't wait for next year where we will be sure to be just as top heavy. So exciting.

[|AFO|]

Also 100% agreement w/ Serge. Maybe KD can earn a title one day.

[Greendaybum5]

Who wants to see Curry and KD sign in Philly this year? Pair them with Simmons and Embiid

[|AFO|]

I'd rather just see KD w/ Philly and pretend 16-17 and 17-18 never happened. I disliked the Warriors prior to this year, but at least I had respect for their ability to draft and develop a team. Bringing Durant in just seems cowardly to me... both on the warriors collectively and on Durant especially.

[manonfire101]

Durant earned his just as much as LeBron... Let's see. James plays with 2 allstars in Love and Kyrie. He hand picked his teammates and made ownership overpay his friends. He hand picked his coach. The Cavs have the highest payroll in the NBA. The Cavs play in the East so they get a free pass to the finals every season. And on top of that he still needed a bogus Draymond Green suspension and favorable officiating to get a ring last season. I don't like what Durant did either, but acting like LeBron somehow earned his and Durant did not is a joke.

[rainblade]

GSW this season are possibly the greatest team ever. Lebron is the greatest player alive.

[KBHoleN1]

Lebron is the greatest player alive.

Do you mean active?

[|AFO|]

Durant earned his just as much as LeBron... Let's see. Let's do it manonman. Wait... that came out wrong.


James plays with 2 allstars in Love and Kyrie.

Curry, Thompson, Green >> Kyrie and Love. Lebron didn't lose to Love and Kyrie in a 7 game WCF slug fest the year before. Kyrie and Love were never above .500 prior to playing with LeBron. Solid comparison though.


He hand picked his teammates and made ownership overpay his friends. He hand picked his coach. The Cavs have the highest payroll in the NBA.

Okay... And KD hand picked the best team in the league, which I suppose includes the coach. Plus they've already talked about taking pay cuts to stick together. And they're already BFFLs. You're right though. LeBron keeping James Jones around is definitely a major factor.


The Cavs play in the East so they get a free pass to the finals every season.

People play this card on Brady too and its tiresome. Maybe his division is so bad because nobody wants to play against him. Like-wise, LeBron has beat down and dismantled teams in the past. Really there's only one other team in the NBA that could beat the Cavs and their best player got injured. If the Spurs switched conferences then the same could be said for the Warriors. Likewise, KD could have come to the east, but he went for the sure thing with the best team in the league. Also, the Cavs (148 total wins) faced better win-loss teams last year than the warriors (140 total wins) did. I'm not sure what the comparison was this year, but each team the warriors faced ended up having an injured allstar, so that's moot.


And on top of that he still needed a bogus Draymond Green suspension and favorable officiating to get a ring last season.

Lol. Draymond should have been suspended against OKC for repeatedly kicking Adams in the balls. It's not LeBron's fault Draymond enjoys going Donkey on people's balls all the time. IMO the loss of Bogut was what did it though. Also tired of the "favorable officiating" argument. The way the game is officiated favors the warriors and both teams get shitty/missed calls for and against them. But you're right. RIIIIIIGGGGGED.


I don't like what Durant did either, but acting like LeBron somehow earned his and Durant did not is a joke.

Nail in the coffin for KD -- He can't even chug a beer and failed to stone cold steve austin that shit.

But yeah... I can't condone LeBron's move down to Miami and drama in Cleveland, but KD's acting like a straight up coward IMO. And if the rumors of the warriors texting KD after their loss last year are true... they're cowards too. If you disagree that's cool. Just hope you have better arguments than the above. You should look up Hall of Famers that joined proven teams... pull out some of those names and KD has some pretty good company. But I bet there were fans back then that were salty about it. In time I'm sure it'll all be forgotten and KD will be remembered as one of the best. But it's still a coward move and ruined this season for me. I still watched, but I didn't enjoy it! >:|

[|AFO|]

Do you mean active?

He means active.

[The One]

AFO, you're naive as fuck if you think that other teams wouldn't kill to have KD join them, regardless of how many superstars are already on it. It takes great team management, player development, and culture to attract someone of KD's caliber to come on board. Bob Myers and Steve Kerr are well ahead of the curve. They're trying to win multiple titles and be a dynasty, not be a one hit wonder.

[manonfire101]

I have a busy morning I'll respond to your bullshit hopefully by tonight, AFO. Gryph is about to replace you on the Top 100, though.

[Sanosuke]

My opinion: LeBron is just as big a bitch as Durant, but ultimately is the king and the best player we've seen since Jordan and Durant is gonna go down in history as a loser to me. I love the warriors other then Durant though. Draymond and curry are fucking awesome lol.

Uhhh... Kobe?

How the fuck does everyone compare LeBron to MJ when he's not even more successful than Kobe? Just because he's chasing Jordan doesn't mean he's earned the right to be compared to him. Is he the best player in the league? Yes. Is he the reason his team's are successful? Yes. But to completely exclude Kobe out if the "best player we've seen since MJ" is ridiculous.

[Sanosuke]

Also, pretty sure KD had a tweet in 2010 about everyone wanting to play for the Lakers and heat and calling out folks instead of wanting to beat them. Ijs

[Greendaybum5]

Uhhh... Kobe?

How the fuck does everyone compare LeBron to MJ when he's not even more successful than Kobe? Just because he's chasing Jordan doesn't mean he's earned the right to be compared to him. Is he the best player in the league? Yes. Is he the reason his team's are successful? Yes. But to completely exclude Kobe out if the "best player we've seen since MJ" is ridiculous.

Why do people say he hasn't passed Kobe yet.... The only thing I'd take Kobe over LBJ for is a clutch buzzer beater. Overall, meaning offense and defense, any GM in history would take LBJ over Kobe.

[Spencer 555]

Also, pretty sure KD had a tweet in 2010 about everyone wanting to play for the Lakers and heat and calling out folks instead of wanting to beat them. Ijs

If he did that's even more proof that durants a bitch lol. To your argument for kobe over LeBron, I don't really even consider Kobe a top 10 player all time. Sure, you'd take kobe in the clutch over LeBron 10/10 times, but in terms of playmaking, leadership and defense LeBron is far superior. He also is a more efficient scorer so there's that too. In terms of comparing LeBron to MJ I think you're right that people should just stop comparing the two. LeBron is great in a completely different way.

Kobe is for sure the closest thing to MJ that we've seen in that regard. MJ was just better in every facet of the game lol. At least with LeBron we have tangible evidence supporting his greatness over MJ. I'm not saying there is really a good argument for it, I'm just saying the argument exists and that's pretty cool. By the end of his career, LeBron will probably be the all time leader in scoring and in the top 10 for every statistical category all while being extremely efficient and a monster on the defensive end.

[Sanosuke]

Why do people say he hasn't passed Kobe yet.... The only thing I'd take Kobe over LBJ for is a clutch buzzer beater. Overall, meaning offense and defense, any GM in history would take LBJ over Kobe.

What is your debate for MJ vs LeBron? What's the standard for the debate?

[Greendaybum5]

What is your debate for MJ vs LeBron? What's the standard for the debate?

A player's skill/ability is really the debate with anyone right? I dunno who I'd pick between MJ and LBJ. Tons of external factors when including team play. Salary cap being the largest one. You also see more talent on fewer teams rather than it being spread out for the most part back in the day.

My debate for MJ vs LBJ is a lot different than the 6-0 vs 3-5 topic (which conveniently leaves out Jordans 3 first round exits). I'd probably lean towards LBJ because he's bigger, better passer and can defend all 5 positions.

[Sanosuke]

So basically the eye test?

[Greendaybum5]

So basically the eye test?

I suppose.

I think comparing things between era's is difficult. Like I think it could easily be debated that GSW this year was best team in NBA history. That being said things like salary cap allowing talent like that to play together definitely comes into it. Also 40 years ago free agency wasn't a thing.

[|AFO|]

AFO, you're naive as fuck if you think that other teams wouldn't kill to have KD join them, regardless of how many superstars are already on it. It takes great team management, player development, and culture to attract someone of KD's caliber to come on board. Bob Myers and Steve Kerr are well ahead of the curve. They're trying to win multiple titles and be a dynasty, not be a one hit wonder.

What does that have to do with anything? I would be fine if he went somewhere else. Lmao.


I have a busy morning I'll respond to your bullshit hopefully by tonight, AFO. Gryph is about to replace you on the Top 100, though.

Awwww... just like old times. Man on making it personal. :p


Uhhh... Kobe?

How the fuck does everyone compare LeBron to MJ when he's not even more successful than Kobe? Just because he's chasing Jordan doesn't mean he's earned the right to be compared to him. Is he the best player in the league? Yes. Is he the reason his team's are successful? Yes. But to completely exclude Kobe out if the "best player we've seen since MJ" is ridiculous.

Kobe shouldn't even be considered better than duncan. He was one of the most selfish and inefficient of the greats. I don't even have him in my top 10. Lebron is easily top 3.

[|AFO|]

@TheOne: also, I rooted against the warriors two years prior just because they were the heavy favorites. I had nothing against what they were doing though. This season was just a technicality because of what KD did, which is not fun for anyone except GSW fanboys apparently.

[Hulky]

Were you guys so up in arms when Randy Moss, Wes Welker and Donte Stallworth signed on to the Patriots and went 18-0 before reaching the SB?

Basketball-wise I remember people being really excited about LeBron's on tv choosing where he was going with Wade and Bosh and acted like the promise was fulfilled when he won the finals. I also remember (although not Championship caliber) Steve Nash, Amare Stoudemire and Shaq being an old man superstar team built in FA.

[Serge]

Football is different. But you better believe the Giants winning that Super Bowl is my favorite Super Bowl moment from games I watched live.

And again, no other situation compares because there's never been another time where a team set a new record for wins in a season and then had the best player on the team they beat after being down 3-1 in the conference finals join them the next year.

[|AFO|]

Well, all of those guys stats basically doubled with the patriots from the previous year, so I wouldn't exactly say they were the 2nd best player in the league. They also all came from losing teams and the Pats weren't considered the best team in the league. Combined with being a completely different sport, where individuals don't matter as much, I don't really get the comparison.

I actually was not excited at all about LeBron joining Wade and Bosh in Miami. I enjoyed watching them lose to the Mavs, but Lebron didn't jump ship to the best team in the league that he lost to the year prior. Also wtf are you talking about w/ Nash, Stoudemire and Shaq? That Phoenix team? lol... You can find way better comparisons in the NBA. Wilt going to the Lakers for example. People don't knock him for that... and I become less and less salty about the LeBron move as years pass. It's likely the same will happen w/ KD.

[Maverik]

why is Lebron the foregone conclusion over Kobe defensively?

not sure if there is some stat to justify that, but I would take Kobe over Lebron for shutdown defender

Kobe wouldn't have gotten crossed by Curry like that.

also, TO send me your shipping address

[Sanosuke]

What does that have to do with anything? I would be fine if he went somewhere else. Lmao.



Awwww... just like old times. Man on making it personal. :p



Kobe shouldn't even be considered better than duncan. He was one of the most selfish and inefficient of the greats. I don't even have him in my top 10. Lebron is easily top 3.

Duncan is by and large great, 110% agree he's better than Kobe as well as much as you can compare the two positions, but if you believe Duncan is better than Kobe, my point still stands about LeBron and MJ comparisons. LeBron is not more successful than at least 3 players from our generation.

[Sanosuke]

Well, all of those guys stats basically doubled with the patriots from the previous year, so I wouldn't exactly say they were the 2nd best player in the league. They also all came from losing teams and the Pats weren't considered the best team in the league. Combined with being a completely different sport, where individuals don't matter as much, I don't really get the comparison.

Would easily argue this if this were the NFL thread.

[|AFO|]

why is Lebron the foregone conclusion over Kobe defensively?

not sure if there is some stat to justify that, but I would take Kobe over Lebron for shutdown defender

Kobe wouldn't have gotten crossed by Curry like that.

also, TO send me your shipping address

LeBron has more total defensive win shares, ave DWS, and peak DWS, and better defensive statistics across the board. LeBron can also guard a wider variety of players. And curry double dribbled. Lol. "Shut down defender" is entirely subjective. Literally the only statistic LeBron loses in is total rings and FT percentage. But Kobe was the best player on only 2 championship teams while LeBron was the best on 3. Kobe is probably a better clutch player... I'd rather have him taking the last shot. But I'd take LeBron to build a dynasty around.

[Maverik]

he's a physical specimen, he'll always have that over everybody

the guarding a wider variety of players is obviously huge and kind of hard to compare across the board with... anybody seeing as he's a fucking Maserati in the body of a tank

[The One]

What does that have to do with anything? I would be fine if he went somewhere else. Lmao.


@TheOne: also, I rooted against the warriors two years prior just because they were the heavy favorites. I had nothing against what they were doing though. This season was just a technicality because of what KD did, which is not fun for anyone except GSW fanboys apparently.

I'm sorry that KD was attracted to Golden State's organization, and wanted to play with a selfless team that instilled a winning mentality? You would be stoked as fuck too if you grew up as a Warriors fan to see how far they've come. Don't be one of those "it's not fair!" whiners. If other organizations can't eventually adapt to what the Warriors are doing, they have nobody but themselves to blame.

The Warriors didn't need KD to beat the Cavaliers. Plus, 3 of the 4 all-stars were drafted and homegrown within the Warriors. Was it fun for you when James, Bosh, Wade, and Allen were all playing on the Heat in a cupcake conference?


TO send me your shipping address

PM'd. Thanks buddy! :)

[Sanosuke]

Don't be one of those "it's not fair!" whiners. If other organizations can't eventually adapt to what the Warriors are doing, they have nobody but themselves to blame.

Yeah man, lemme tell you how organizations like the Pacers, Bucks, Jazz, and Timberwolves are gonna get four all-stars. Better make sure I keep blaming myself when I don't have major market money.

EDIT: There's literally no way to "adapt" to what the Warriors did. You cannot simply "adapt" to having 2 of the top 5 scorers in the league on one team, considering they're also former MVPs. There's only much you can do to even compete with the sheer talent gap the Warriors have over everyone else. If it were so easy to 'adapt', the Warriors wouldn't have pranced into the Finals without taking an L.

As far as your cupcake conference remark, please refer to my prancing into the Finals line. If the only team capable of giving the Warriors a Loss in the NBA Playoffs, where subjectively the best remaining teams play, came from the East, you could debate what's actually "cupcake" and what isn't.

[Serge]

The time that Love and Irving were healthy but Durant wasn't on the Warriors resulted in a Cavs title but they didn't need Durant, lol.

[Serge]

Yeah, here's the list of active players with an MVP.

Curry
Durant
James
Rose
Nowitzki

Not only is it a joke Rose won in the first place he's damaged goods. And Nowitzki is old as hell. So there's no way for any other team to have two former MVPs.

[bludhoundz]

LeBron shaved his head. I might switch sides from hater to fan now. Why something like this would change my mind, I have no idea.

Also, the NBA is fucking boring. I love basketball, it's a great sport. But this league is fucked. There's no parity and no balance. Do any teams besides Golden State and Cleveland even have a legitimate shot to make it to the finals next year? Maybe the Spurs if they get CP3? Like this is actually stupid. James has been to 7 finals in a row. SEVEN. I get that he's the best player in the league, but that shouldn't be enough. He's always joining teams with other superstars. People say it's dumb to compare KD's move to the Golden State to James going to Miami. But it isn't. It's the same concept, even if what KD did was way more extreme. If the NBA doesn't do something then we're just gonna see this same cycle repeat over and over with a few teams owning for stretches and the rest of the league being practically irrelevant. Although it now occurs to me that it might have been this way the whole time.

[The One]

Yeah man, lemme tell you how organizations like the Pacers, Bucks, Jazz, and Timberwolves are gonna get four all-stars. Better make sure I keep blaming myself when I don't have major market money.

EDIT: There's literally no way to "adapt" to what the Warriors did. You cannot simply "adapt" to having 2 of the top 5 scorers in the league on one team, considering they're also former MVPs. There's only much you can do to even compete with the sheer talent gap the Warriors have over everyone else. If it were so easy to 'adapt', the Warriors wouldn't have pranced into the Finals without taking an L.

As far as your cupcake conference remark, please refer to my prancing into the Finals line. If the only team capable of giving the Warriors a Loss in the NBA Playoffs, where subjectively the best remaining teams play, came from the East, you could debate what's actually "cupcake" and what isn't.

3 of the 4 Allstars were acquired through the draft, then developing them. It took more than one year for Curry, Thompson, and Green to start realizing their potential. It's not an overnight fix. Other teams need to be smarter with the draft and their front office personnel. Don't try to pretend like the Warriors are only good because they throw money at every player on their team. That's weak.

There is a way to compete with the Warriors - but it requires killing it in the draft and player development with the right management and coaching.

Don't make me laugh about the soft Eastern Conference. The only real challenge the Warriors faced were the Spurs in both regular and post season. They should have won Game 1 in the playoffs. I'd actually take the Rockets and Spurs over the Cavaliers in a best of 7 series.


The time that Love and Irving were healthy but Durant wasn't on the Warriors resulted in a Cavs title but they didn't need Durant, lol.

Don't be stupid. You're citing the Finals series the Cavaliers won where Curry, Bogut, and Iguodala were hurt, and Green suspended a game? With all that going on the Cavaliers still needed a near-perfect execution to pull it off.

Warriors win with or without Durant. KD just basically guarantees it.

[The Professor]

LeBron shaved his head. I might switch sides from hater to fan now. Why something like this would change my mind, I have no idea.

Also, the NBA is fucking boring. I love basketball, it's a great sport. But this league is fucked. There's no parity and no balance. Do any teams besides Golden State and Cleveland even have a legitimate shot to make it to the finals next year? Maybe the Spurs if they get CP3? Like this is actually stupid. James has been to 7 finals in a row. SEVEN. I get that he's the best player in the league, but that shouldn't be enough. He's always joining teams with other superstars. People say it's dumb to compare KD's move to the Golden State to James going to Miami. But it isn't. It's the same concept, even if what KD did was way more extreme. If the NBA doesn't do something then we're just gonna see this same cycle repeat over and over with a few teams owning for stretches and the rest of the league being practically irrelevant. Although it now occurs to me that it might have been this way the whole time.

This isn't really a problem for the NBA. It's always been this way. 80's you had Celtics and Lakers, with the 76ers and Pistons sprinkled on the outside.

90's you had the Bulls and the 2 years the Rockets won without MJ.

00's you had the Spurs and Lakers, followed by the birth of Superteams in the Boston Celtics.

2010's you had the Heat/LeBron era mixed with the Warriors.

The reason the NBA has soared regardless of little parity is because individuals matter 20x more compared to other sports, especially the NFL. Dont get me wrong, there are quite a few (including prognosticators and analysts) people who thought the season was boring, but there were many people who still liked to watch greatness (however it was formed). Curry, Durant, Kyrie, LeBron...average fans care more about them than their teams. The NBA knows this, and while they would like more parity, at this moment they don't need it.

[The One]

This isn't really a problem for the NBA. It's always been this way. 80's you had Celtics and Lakers, with the 76ers and Pistons sprinkled on the outside.

90's you had the Bulls and the 2 years the Rockets won without MJ.

00's you had the Spurs and Lakers, followed by the birth of Superteams in the Boston Celtics.

2010's you had the Heat/LeBron era mixed with the Warriors.

The reason the NBA has soared regardless of little parity is because individuals matter 20x more compared to other sports, especially the NFL. Dont get me wrong, there are quite a few (including prognosticators and analysts) people who thought the season was boring, but there were many people who still liked to watch greatness (however it was formed). Curry, Durant, Kyrie, LeBron...average fans care more about them than their teams. The NBA knows this, and while they would like more parity, at this moment they don't need it.

Precisely. I couldn't have said it any better.

[Hulky]

Another noob NBA question, but how is this different than before mid-1990s NFL? 49ers, Cowboys, and Steelers monopolized talent. NBA is just amplified because there is only 5 guys on the field. But peak NFL 49ers had Montana (MVP) with Young (MVP) backing him up with Rice (GOAT) catching. Then shit like Haley flipping sides threw off the balance between the superteams. Then Cowboys/Steelers in the 70s was like every superbowl unless the Raiders from the AFC or Vikings from the NFC could slip in over the Steelers/Cowboys in the championship game.

[Blexican]

Another noob NBA question, but how is this different than before mid-1990s NFL? 49ers, Cowboys, and Steelers monopolized talent. NBA is just amplified because there is only 5 guys on the field. But peak NFL 49ers had Montana (MVP) with Young (MVP) backing him up with Rice (GOAT) catching. Then shit like Haley flipping sides threw off the balance between the superteams. Then Cowboys/Steelers in the 70s was like every superbowl unless the Raiders from the AFC or Vikings from the NFC could slip in over the Steelers/Cowboys in the championship game.

The simplest way to answer this question is the spending of money vs. draft and develop.(in some situations.) The gathering of players from separate teams to all sign to one team. For the example of Jerry Rice/Montana/Steve Young this wasn't the case. Montana and Rice were drafted by the 49ers while Steve Young came in via trade when he wasn't MVP yet.

This(would be more like if Tom Brady and Antonio Brown signed with the Dallas Cowboys, forming a big 3(or big 4 if you like Dez) with Ezekiel Elliot. The "this" is referring to the Miami Heat or Boston Celtics situation of a "Big 3".

The Warriors to me are a completely different situation. They drafted and developed a lot of guys that didn't simply just get signed there. The one exception being KD, which I personally have no problems with. Thats another whole discussion.

[Hulky]

The simplest way to answer this question is the spending of money vs. draft and develop.(in some situations.) The gathering of players from separate teams to all sign to one team. For the example of Jerry Rice/Montana/Steve Young this wasn't the case. Montana and Rice were drafted by the 49ers while Steve Young came in via trade when he wasn't MVP yet.

This(would be more like if Tom Brady and Antonio Brown signed with the Dallas Cowboys, forming a big 3(or big 4 if you like Dez) with Ezekiel Elliot. The "this" is referring to the Miami Heat or Boston Celtics situation of a "Big 3".

The Warriors to me are a completely different situation. They drafted and developed a lot of guys that didn't simply just get signed there. The one exception being KD, which I personally have no problems with. Thats another whole discussion.

How is it different than Charles Haley, Deion Sanders, and Ken Norton Jr flipping sides to throw off the balance of the NFC then?

[bludhoundz]

The reason the NBA has soared regardless of little parity is because individuals matter 20x more compared to other sports, especially the NFL. Dont get me wrong, there are quite a few (including prognosticators and analysts) people who thought the season was boring, but there were many people who still liked to watch greatness (however it was formed). Curry, Durant, Kyrie, LeBron...average fans care more about them than their teams. The NBA knows this, and while they would like more parity, at this moment they don't need it.

I wasn't saying they were gonna go out of business or lose fans in any significant way.

But it is a problem to some extent, even if they're still doing great by all the measurables and metrics. How many people were salty when KD went to the Warriors (and still are)? Greatness is cool and all, but it sorta just sucks that a ton of the games during the regular season have almost no significance at all. You can argue this is the same in other sports, but it certainly isn't nearly as drastic. And it's hard to argue that that doesn't make a season more boring than it would be if there was greatness contained but there existed more competition.

[Hulky]

'88 Charles Haley 49er SB Champ
'89 Charles Haley 49er SB Champ
'92 Charles Haley, Ken Norton Jr Cowboys SB Champs (49ers lost NFC Championship to Cowboys)
'93 Charles Haley, Ken Norton Jr Cowboys SB Champs (49ers lost NFC Championship to Cowboys)
'94 Ken Norton Jr, Deion Sanders 49er SB Champs (Cowboys lost NFC Championship to 49ers)
'95 Charles Haley, Deion Sanders Cowboys SB Champs

[Spencer 555]

Hulky. The gsw in comparison to the NFL is like having prime Walter Peyton at rb, prime jerry rice x3 (however many wr on a team there are) at WR, Tony Gonzalez at TE, a bunch of solid players at every other position and then prime tom Brady signs with the team to replace the mediocre quarterback.

1 mvp basketball player is worth several mvp baseball, hockey, football players because of the influence they can have on the game. In every single basketball game, there are hundreds of possessions and each star player can play up to 90% of those possessions.

[Blexican]

Hulky. The gsw in comparison to the NFL is like having prime Walter Peyton at rb, prime jerry rice x3 (however many wr on a team there are) at WR, Tony Gonzalez at TE, a bunch of solid players at every other position and then prime tom Brady signs with the team to replace the mediocre quarterback.

1 mvp basketball player is worth several mvp baseball, hockey, football players because of the influence they can have on the game. In every single basketball game, there are hundreds of possessions and each star player can play up to 90% of those possessions.

The difference is that the GSW built the splash brothers and draymond green through good drafting and development. Not their wallets. This is not a situation where multiple stars agree to sign to one team. It was one star who made a FA decision to join an mvp player in his prime. People are overreacting by saying GSW "paid" for a championship.

Spencer makes a solid point about influence. Not being on the field equals to 0 influence during roughly half the game in the NFL. In the NBA a star plays as much as 90%+ of the game and influences arguably every single possession in a giant way. Including when the other team has the ball.

[Spencer 555]

Ya in my example I was pretending everyone other then tom Brady was under contract and home grown

[The Professor]

I wasn't saying they were gonna go out of business or lose fans in any significant way.

But it is a problem to some extent, even if they're still doing great by all the measurables and metrics. How many people were salty when KD went to the Warriors (and still are)? Greatness is cool and all, but it sorta just sucks that a ton of the games during the regular season have almost no significance at all. You can argue this is the same in other sports, but it certainly isn't nearly as drastic. And it's hard to argue that that doesn't make a season more boring than it would be if there was greatness contained but there existed more competition.

It's only a problem if the NBA starts losing money, and that doesn't look to be happening anytime soon. The NFL has a bad image problem right now with some of its players, not to mention concussions. MLB is Americas pastime and clearly the third most popular sport in North America.

You may have been bored as were others, but so many more were entertained at the prospect of seeing LeBron lose, GS go through the playoffs perfect, or just as enanmored in seeing their favorite players. The NBA is about players, not teams as weird as it sounds. It wasn't the Chicago Bulls that made the NBA popular, or Celtics/Lakers, it was Michael, Larry, and Magic.

The NBAs worst problem right now is GS being so good, yet that leads to discussions about best team ever and how good is Kevin Durant really or Steph Curry etc etc. Pretty soon we're going to have the draft and Free Agency which is arguably the best offseason period of any sports because again, players matter so much more in the NBA than players do in Football or MLB.

If you're argument at the end of day is that it's a problem because some fans don't like it, then yeah it is. But the NBAs popularity will continue to rise, not fall. It will continue to make money, not lose it. So in the end it's not really a problem.

[Spencer 555]

Honestly still love the nba despite the warriors. Who's got next is extremely interesting to me and the raptors are still really fun and gritty. The NBA is also the most progressive thinking league in sports and embraces personalities. It's the only league where players are encouraged to be outspoken. The NBA has plenty of issues, but so does every other league.

In other news Philly acquires fultz meaning Lowry stays on the raptors (or goes to the spurs?)

[Spencer 555]

Honestly really excited to see Philly and the bucks this next year. Just to see how improved they can both be. Fuck the Celtics.

Also, this is probably crazy talk, because fultz is legit gonna be a beast in the league, but I wanna see lonzo ball and Ben Simmons play together so bad.

[The Professor]

Paul George told Indiana he's out after next year, which means he's getting traded pretty soon. And it's begun.

[Spencer 555]

Fun fun

[Serge]

My biggest problem with the state of the NBA is three point shooting. Threes are clearly worth too much. If you call Curry a one dimensional jump shooter you get mocked but the reality is that if teams didn't have to respect his circus shot threes and the fact that most of his teammates have good threes he would finish at the rim at an average rate for a starting point guard. And the Warriors entire offense is built arounf this. If next season they changed the rules so that shots behind the arc were only worth 2.5 points the Warriors would probably be the second or third best team in the West.

[bludhoundz]

If you're argument at the end of day is that it's a problem because some fans don't like it, then yeah it is. But the NBAs popularity will continue to rise, not fall. It will continue to make money, not lose it. So in the end it's not really a problem.

Pretty much this. I don't agree it's not really a problem though. It's a problem for me. It's a problem for a lot of fans. I don't care if it's a problem for the people running the NBA or not, which was never the point.

[Greendaybum5]

Woohoo the Process if finally working. I'm super pumped about this trade with Boston. Honestly I don't think it's that much to give up to get Fultz. I kind of hope the Lakers pick conveys next year because it's probably safe to say Kings in 2019 will be a top 3 pick.

Also Pacers asking for 2 1's and a starter in return for PG13.....a one year rental....who the hell is going to pay that since Brooklyn doesn't have any picks to trade?

[Spencer 555]

I would. He's not gonna turn down the bird rights deal to play on a shit Lakers team. Guarantee this whole Lakers speculation is his way of maxing in a bigger market. Boston would be fine.

[Greendaybum5]

I would. He's not gonna turn down the bird rights deal to play on a shit Lakers team. Guarantee this whole Lakers speculation is his way of maxing in a bigger market. Boston would be fine.

you're still gambling that he resigns with you

[The Professor]

Pretty much this. I don't agree it's not really a problem though. It's a problem for me. It's a problem for a lot of fans. I don't care if it's a problem for the people running the NBA or not, which was never the point.

I understand. I just can't remember a time when any league didn't have certain problems, and this particular problem seems a little irrelevant since the NBA has always been built on few teams truly having a chance at a title.

On the bright side, the draft and Free Agency are coming up, and seeing teams reload or get rid of players is always exciting. Also, GS may indeed win next year, but it won't be easy. As a team (Curry, Klay, Dray), this will be their 4th straight year trying to make the Finals. That shit is hard. There will be mental fatigue, injurie possibilities will increase the more and more they play, and teams will be gunning for them every night. Then they'll have to worry about the salary cap when Klay and Dray are due raises.

That's why Superteams are exciting. You want to see how long it's sustainable because the wheels eventually fall off, and when they do it's quick and ugly. Just look at the Lakers, or the Heat.

[Spencer 555]

Yup I'm with prof. There's a lot to be excited about. GS is gonna be a lot less deep this next year unless they get really creative. My money's on a repeat but some teams are clearly on the cusp.

[Greendaybum5]

Rumors of Kevin Love to the Sixers in 3 team deal with Cle and Ind.....would be nice to have a solid veteran like Love, but may be a year or two early to pull off a deal like this. #TrustTheProcess #InHinkieWeTrust #Don'tBeStupidColangelo

[Spencer 555]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nNHyuBc2kkg

[|AFO|]

Rumors of Kevin Love to the Sixers in 3 team deal with Cle and Ind.....would be nice to have a solid veteran like Love, but may be a year or two early to pull off a deal like this. #TrustTheProcess #InHinkieWeTrust #Don'tBeStupidColangelo

Love isn't the problem with Cleveland and PG13 won't solve it. Sure, they'll be better if you swap those two in their starting line up. However, they don't have a good system on the offensive end and they have too many holes on defense. Hero ball with James, Irving, and PG13 won't get it done against GSW. Warriors just play too well together for that to work.

[Spencer 555]

True, afo. I think George would really solve a lot of the cavs defensive issues though. Would be a better series imo.

[Greendaybum5]

Love isn't the problem with Cleveland and PG13 won't solve it. Sure, they'll be better if you swap those two in their starting line up. However, they don't have a good system on the offensive end and they have too many holes on defense. Hero ball with James, Irving, and PG13 won't get it done against GSW. Warriors just play too well together for that to work.

Never said Love was the problem with Cleveland lol

[KBHoleN1]

Seems like Josh Jackson really doesn't want to play for the Celtics.

[Spencer 555]

Who would :p

[Spencer 555]

Yo Mav when am I getting a ticket to msg?

[|AFO|]

Never said Love was the problem with Cleveland lol

It was more a commentary on the trade than a response to your post. :]

[Spencer 555]

Kenny the jet! He agrees with me the 6ers should take ball over fultz lol.

[Darkness]

KD 2.0 and Magic 2.0 are a solid core. If PG13 and Boogie join, then the Lakers might be able to make some noise in the playoffs. Partially joking with the first part, but I think they will both turn into solid players and I am hopeful for the future if we can make some nice FA signings. Still a long way to go before having a chance at beating the Warriors though.

[Spencer 555]

Will be pretty interesting what lonzo can do on a team that isn't ready to play up to his skillset.

[Sanosuke]

I don't think lonzo ball is the best player on the Lakers roster.

[Spencer 555]

Agree there sano. Ball could easily be a bust. I was just drooling at the possibility of seeing ball and Simmons play together. Better fit.

[Maverik]

always been a closet T-Wolves fan, but really excited to see what they do this year

really wanted Butler to the Lakers when there were those rumors a few years back, I think he's fucking great

same with the Suns

couldn't give 2 shits about Ball

[Spencer 555]

Ya the suns and twolves are gonna be really interesting to watch next year. Booker and Wiggins are gonna have to step up if either hopes to make the playoffs though. Both are eventually gonna be top 20 players, talent is there in spurts, but it hasn't translated consistently enough yet. I would bet on the twolves making the playoffs this year though. Would rather them over okc and Memphis for sure.

[Spencer 555]

I don't like that Utah traded trey lyles. Think they'll regret that.

[Greendaybum5]

Ya the suns and twolves are gonna be really interesting to watch next year. Booker and Wiggins are gonna have to step up if either hopes to make the playoffs though. Both are eventually gonna be top 20 players, talent is there in spurts, but it hasn't translated consistently enough yet. I would bet on the twolves making the playoffs this year though. Would rather them over okc and Memphis for sure.

Minnesota has to be a lock for the playoffs. Not saying how far they'll go, but definitely going to make it at least based on talent. Ball could be a legit player, but happy 76ers took Fultz.

[KBHoleN1]

Funny article on the worst of the NBA this season:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-nba-haters-ball/

Some highlights:


When Wiggins contests a shot, opponents have a 56.1 effective field goal percentage; when they are unguarded, they have a 56.4 eFG percentage. Fundamentally, getting a shot up against Andrew Wiggins is the same as getting an open shot.

he knows they aren’t “all worth two points” and he’s determined to collect the difference, even at the cost of the two points

Tristan Thompson played 30 minutes per game for the Cleveland Cavaliers, but was passed the ball just 14.6 times per game and 17.5 times per 36 minutes ...

Kevin Love, who has seen his role reduced drastically from his superstar days in Minnesota, got 37.8 touches per 36 minutes. James got 66.8; Irving got 67.2; even Iman Shumpert, who cannot dribble, pass or shoot, got 30.1. Richard Jefferson, who was drafted when Thompson was 10 years old, got 26.8.

[Spencer 555]

Haha wow there's gotta be some luck involved with poor wiggy. He's better then the underlying stats suggest imo. Think he's in line for a big year with Jimmy taking over the more important defensive coverages.

[KBHoleN1]

I mean, he can be better, but he has to try. Did you watch the video in that article of defensive plays where he wasn't even giving effort? Just watching the ball with his back to his defender?

[Spencer 555]

Oh I don't need to watch it. I watch a lot if twolves I know how bad he is regularly on defense lol

[Spencer 555]

I just think he has it in him to be average to above average covering less frontcourt players and not being tasked with the hardest covers. Wiggy is basically Demar Derozan of 2014

[Greendaybum5]

CP3 and Harden should be fun to watch together. Carmelo says he'll go there if he's bought out too so could be a new super team forming. PG13 trade possible too.

[Spencer 555]

Seems like a weird fit. Capela breakout next year I guess :P

[Greendaybum5]

Seems like a weird fit. Capela breakout next year I guess :P

everyone also said how was durant going to do in GSW where 3 players all needed their fair share of shots.

[Spencer 555]

Everyone? I'm pretty sure I was tooting the "wow golden State is now unstoppable, what a perfect fit" horn.

[Spencer 555]

I changed my mind, I like this move from paul. If harden stays engaged on defense, and let's Paul get his touches, this has potential to be pretty nice.

[Spencer 555]

Lol! Serge Ibaka on a one year deal was worth more then Paul George on a one year deal. Good job pacers. Or magic... both retarded.

[Spencer 555]

Be good to amir Philly, he's an awesome dude. You're gonna love him whenever he's on the court.

[Spencer 555]

Fultz - Reddick - Simmons - Saric - Embiid

Rotation: McConnell - Stauskas - Covington - Amir - okafor

Looks like a playoff team to me.

[Spencer 555]

Western conference rankings:

Warriors
Spurs
Rockets
OKC
Minny
Denver
Utah
NOP

This assuming hayward resigns with utah. The west is gonna be so sick, all 8 teams are really interesting.

East standings:

Celtics (The depth)
Cavs
Wiz
Milwaukee
Raps
Miami
Sixers
Hornets

[The Professor]

Memphis is better than Utah and NOP. They suck in the regular season but they are great in the playoffs. I also like the signing of Ben Mcclemore for them. Great low key signing. All they need is to sign Thomas Robinson and they'll be the pro version of the Kansas Jayhawks

[Spencer 555]

Ya Memphis and Portland are right up there too. The west is insane.

[Hulky]

Why is Durant only getting 2 years, $53 million? Curry got like 5 years $200 million?

[Lex]

Why is Durant only getting 2 years, $53 million? Curry got like 5 years $200 million?

To prolong the warriors ability to fuck the league up the butt with superstars on bargain contracts. Curry only made 12 million last year. klay and draymond are only making 16 each this year. They're all worth max contracts.

[Spencer 555]

Also his earning potential will be higher in 2 years when the warriors have his bird rights.

[Lex]

Also he's a bitch

[Spencer 555]

Ya. A generous bitch.

[Spencer 555]

LeBron James is going to the Sixers next year. I feel it. Kyrie too much of a scrub for him.

[Maverik]

spencer and IROK confirmed to be the same person

[Spencer 555]

I don't have moobs

[Serge]

Also he's a bitch

Did you see his reaction to Peyton Manning's joke at the Espy's? Finals MVP and he's still insecure as fuck because he knows he's a punk.

[Spencer 555]

Brutal lol

[Greendaybum5]

LeBron James is going to the Sixers next year. I feel it. Kyrie too much of a scrub for him.

LBJ is also Simmons mentor.....

[Spencer 555]

And Cleveland isn't going to pay the repeater tax.

[Sanosuke]

houston for sale kek. inb4 china buys them

[Spencer 555]

Been reading a bunch of stories on LeBron and the cavs situation, and it looks like he's probably going to stay and get that super max contract he deserves. I won't be surprised though if the cavs owner doesn't wanna pay him it though.

[Spencer 555]

Raptors off season... trade Cory Joseph, Demarre Carroll, a 2018 1st and 2nd round pick for nothing. Sign a defensive liability and call him a 3 and D player..

Hope to god our young kids can pick up the slack. Excited to see Bruno get some minutes and valanciunas come in off the bench where he won't be burned so hard in the pick n roll. No idea what our starting 5 is gonna be.

[Spencer 555]

If valanciunas is starting beside Ibaka I'm gonna be pretty pissed lol

[Greendaybum5]

Raptors off season... trade Cory Joseph, Demarre Carroll, a 2018 1st and 2nd round pick for nothing. Sign a defensive liability and call him a 3 and D player..

Hope to god our young kids can pick up the slack. Excited to see Bruno get some minutes and valanciunas come in off the bench where he won't be burned so hard in the pick n roll. No idea what our starting 5 is gonna be.

Lowry Derozan PJ Tucker Ibaka Valenciunas

[Spencer 555]

Tucker gone dude

[Spencer 555]

Can't wait for the cavs to trade Kyrie so he can prove how shit he is "leading" another team.

[Spencer 555]

Kyrie to the Knicks would be so awesome. Melo + picks would definitely be worth it. Pull the trigger! Irving wouldn't make the Knicks any better then they were this year and I hesitate to say the cavs would be any worse with melo at sf/pf, LeBron playing point guard and Rose coming in on a vet minimum as the backup pg/ 6th man. Pleeeeease make this happen basketball gods... Irving needs to be exposed! Lol

[Greendaybum5]

Tucker gone dude

Forgot about that. CJ Miles show!

[Spencer 555]

I'm trying to wrap my head around this irving trade... Irving for thomas and crowder alone woulda been a win for the cavs in my eyes... They also get the nets pick next year? Danny ainge is smokin something. Does he perpetually want to be behind the cavs?

[The Professor]

Thomas is 29, 4 years older than Kyrie and just had major injury albeit without surgery. He's also due for a big pay raise a year before Kyries next pay raise. Kyries talent level is also higher than Isaiah...especially since he can get his shot anytime. I know you're not high on Kyrie, but he's way more valuable than Thomas.

[Lex]

The brooklyn pick is more valuable than either of them.

[Spencer 555]

Would u agree it's robbery if Kyrie doesn't improve at all as a playmaker? I think he is what he is on defense, but he "could" improve offensively in his prime. I've ranked Kyrie higher then Thomas on many lists and I'm not super high on him (thomas) either, mainly bexause of size, but Thomas and Crowder for Irving straight up is fair in the short and long-term if you think Kyrie has peaked... which I do.

The cavs get better in the short and long term without a doubt for a guy they were planning on moving anyways... didn't we just here that the Celtics wouldn't move the brooklyn pick for Paul George or Jimmy butler?

[The Professor]

Doesn't matter much as a playmaker, his skill set is so valuable during the playoffs. I don't get how you ignore that. It's one reason why Lowry is so ineffective, he just can't manufacture good shots when defenses tighten up, and he can't make the tough shots Kyrie can hit on a consistent basis. In a 5-5 setting, Kyrie is more valuable than most players because he gets buckets, and now he'll play for the best coach he's ever had by miles to improve (Ty Lue is a joke) on his playmaking.

Also, I think the Brooklyn pick lost a little value when Brooklyn made moves to improve somewhat, while other teams made moves to get a little worse in the east. It could still be a Top 3 pick, but if it's outside the top 6 then the Celtics will look a lot smarter.

[Maverik]

I hate the Celtics from the Paul Pierce days, but its really hard to dislike their current roster

I like Kyrie and Hayward and I think Brad Stevens is fucking amazing.

[Maverik]

Rudy Gobert might also be my new favorite player

he just retweeted IT's recruiting of Hayward to the Celtics

hahahahaha

[Spencer 555]

Ya lol Rudy gobert is awesome.

Prof, well I guess we'll see. I personally think the cavs become a much better team with Thomas and Crowder then they would be with Kyrie even if Kyrie clearly is the best of the three. He's not a leader of a team, he's not gonna move the needle any for the Celts unless he improves. And I'm not confident Brooklyn isn't still the worst team in the league honestly. The hawks are on paper but bud is a great coach and they have a good system in place.

[The Professor]

Bulls are probably the worst team, especially with Wade going to be bought out, and we know the Nets aren't trying to tank this year while other teams will.

[Spencer 555]

Oh true forgot the bulls. Damn they're lookin rough. But id take everyone else in the east over the nets honestly. Sacramento is probably the only team in the West that could lose more then the nets. They're gonna have a shot at landing #1

[Sanosuke]

Cavs are retarded.

[Spencer 555]

Ofc you would think the cavs lost this trade. I'm gonna laugh when the celtics take a step back this year without thomas and all the kyrie believers who refuse to admit that I'm right about this trade blame horford or hayward for Irving's inability to carry the team. I see it coming a mile away.

[Sanosuke]

So LeBron is on his last year, Thomas on his last year. Both could possibly leave, then it leaves the Cavs with Love, Crowder and I guess a rookie PG? Yeah man they totally won. Thank goodness for trading superstar players with 2 years of control who are in their prime (age 25-27 years for Irving) to a conference rival.

[The Professor]

So LeBron is on his last year, Thomas on his last year. Both could possibly leave, then it leaves the Cavs with Love, Crowder and I guess a rookie PG? Yeah man they totally won. Thank goodness for trading superstar players with 2 years of control who are in their prime (age 25-27 years for Irving) to a conference rival.

I think Irving is easily the best player in the trade, but this Cavs team was built for LeBron, and it showed when he didn't play how bad they were even with Love and Irving. He wasn't going to take the Cavs anywhere unless they built around him if LeBron left, and that wasn't happening with their payroll so high.

Now Cleveland gets a one year rental of Thomas and they can pay him or trade him. They have Crowder who is a decent player and one ridiculously low contract, and the Brooklyn pick which I am not as high on as others are, but can still possibly end up the number 1 pick. This was not a bad trade for either team. In fact this is one of those trades that was as close to perfect for each team as it possibly could be.

[Lex]

Also, irving thinks the earth is flat. Addition by subtraction.

Brooklyn traded their best player for a PG that is arguably worse than their current PG who was their 2nd best player. They might be worse next year than they were this year.

[Spencer 555]

Here's my take.

So Kyrie + LeBron was not as good as the warriors. They were not going to compete against the warriors in 17/18 and they were not going to improve the roster without clearing cap space. They plateaued.

Luckily, Kyrie decided for some reason he was too good to live in the shadow of the king despite never being able to win on the cavs in games where LeBron sat (lol superstar my ass). In fact I think the record with LeBron sitting was something stupid like to 4-18 and in the playoffs against the warriors, when lebron was on the bench, the cavs were completely and utterly trash.

Anyways. Back to the trade. So the cavs manage to shed Kyrie's contract and acquire cheap contracts who, combined, are worth more then Kyrie In terms of wins added and cost less for 1 season. This gives the cavs a ton more cap flexibility next year if they want to make trades and raise their ceiling for a run at the warriors. Realistically, they won't compete with the warriors regardless, but they have a higher ceiling next year then they would have had with Kyrie alone. So the cavs get better next year arguably, and they get better in following years potentially (If LeBron stays) because they get a potential #1 pick. A potential #1 pick isn't just "some rookie pg".

The cherry on top is they manage to do all of this for a guy who had confirmed he was not going to participate in training camp because he did not want to play on the team anymore. Paul George, a player I consider much better then Irving, was traded in a similar situation for next to nothing.

The cavs are massive winners in this trade.

As for Boston... well they get a young talented player for more assets then he should have cost them after hoarding those assets and missing out on Jimmy Butler/Paul George. This is a win for the celtics if you believe in Irving and the young talent already in place behind him (Tatum, smart, fultz, brown) but its a costly victory and they're putting too much faith in a guy who thinks the world is flat. I don't think the Celtics are going to beat the cavs with Kyrie now, and I don't think the Celtics are gonna beat Philly in the future without Marvin Bagley or Micheal Porter.

[Sanosuke]

The Cavs aren't winners beyond this year is what I think you're missing. I'm looking at long term and you're looking at "can they compete with the warriors" this year.

They're literally about to be in the same boat after the first time James left. Drafting a new corner stone for the franchise while trying to fight for an 8 seed at best and James winning championships somewhere else.

[The Professor]

The future wasn't there with Irving anyways. The team has a lot of bad contracts and only by keeping James would they be relevant in the future. The Cavs managed to trade a toxic situation (Irving apparently was willing to sit out training camp) and turned it into Isaiah Thomas (a defensive sieve that can score on anybody) and Jae Crowder (Prototypical 3 and D wing) on a cheap contract that can help them win or let them trade him for more assets.

They also acquired the Brooklyn pick, which some people believe to be the most valuable asset currently for next year. They also have Kevin Love who they can trade as well because he still has some value and his contract is 20/million a year, vs 25-30 million a year some other players make.

The future isn't bleak for Cleveland. If LeBron leaves then they would suck anyways. Now they have a lot more flexibility to rebuild for the future while being competitive this year. Kyrie Irving wasn't going to change that. Cleveland wasn't designed for him, maybe Boston will be.

[Spencer 555]

Exactly. And also, I don't know why anyone is assuming LeBron is leaving cleveland. That's hardly a done deal, but it's not a horrible situation there at all. Especially now that they have the Brooklyn pick.

[Sanosuke]

The entire point is that you'll be out of LeBron James and Thomas. If they trade KLove, great. But it's the entire principal of them having to rebuild all over again. If they were actually concerned with their future they wouldn't have been strong handed by LeBron about personnel. Irving was doing fine in Cleveland before LeBron. In a post 2017-18 season for Cleveland they're left with Crowder, Love and some dudes if LeBron does not decide to stay. I'm not saying it's a forgone conclusion but if you aren't preparing for that in full then it's a mistake.

I don't think Cleveland wins big in the trade because you're downgrading in PG, you get a very affordable Crowder and a pick. Draft picks are only good if the player who is drafted pans out. Until then their value is subjective.

[Spencer 555]

I cant think of a more reasonable alternative man. Even if u keep Kyrie this year, I would argue that I'd rather have Crowder and Thomas for 2018 then Kyrie. And then what do u have? In your situation LeBron leaves regardless of what you do and now you have a disgruntled Kyrie + Love and no 1st round picks to dream on. Kyrie + Love doesn't even guarantee a playoff spot and trading kyrie's bird rights next year essentially makes you the bulls. You're basically either the bulls if you decide to trade Kyrie next year after LeBron leaves or the Knicks if you decide to rebuild around Kyrie and Love. I know I would be much more comfortable having the first round pick then relying on Kyrie and Love to keep my team competitive.

[Spencer 555]

Essentially what you're saying is the rebuild is inevitable right? So wouldn't a potential first overall pick and a chance at going all in for 1 more year before the rebuild be exactly what you want?

[manonfire101]

I like the trade for the Celtics more. Irving is better and younger than IT and I think he'll be even better next season because he'll be more relaxed playing with the Celtics and Stevens than he would have with the Cavs. In my view the Cavs/LeBron is what is toxic here, and I think Irving just wanted to get away from that, even if it meant being on a worse team.

[Spencer 555]

Lebron's toxic like mj was toxic. The cavs ownership is toxic like bulls ownership.

Kyrie is just a loser who got his way by stirring up some drama. The Celtics aren't going anywhere with him leading the way.