For MLB fans

[manonfire101]

Yes, you do see that, Hugh.

https://www.quora.com/How-many-times-has-a-pitcher-been-pulled-during-a-no-hitter

And I just gave you plenty of reasons why a manager would do that. And I gave you those reasons without relentlessly using ad-hominem.

[Hugh]

48 instances in 100+ years of baseball and you don't even know the circumstances around any of them? Injuries or anything? Jesus I watched a combined no-hitter for the Mariners a few years back where the starter got pulled because he injured himself.
I've made my point, and now you're making it for me.

[Spencer 555]

If there is any manager that WOULD pull him you'd think it would be Buck too.

True, but maybe we overestimate his shittyness and underestimate his old schoolness.

In my head, I can imagine buck wanting his players to play every inning of every game because otherwise they're pussies. But at the same time, I could definitely see him bein like "oh you're goin for a record are u? Well that's a shame cause ur on the bench"

Bucks a dick and I'm not sure what he'd do most of the time. Think it's weird that orioles players seem to respect him so much.

I'd put money on Joe Maddon sitting his star in that situation for all the right reasons.

[Spencer 555]

48 instances in 100+ years of baseball and you don't even know the circumstances around any of them? Injuries or anything? Jesus I watched a combined no-hitter for the Mariners a few years back where the starter got pulled because he injured himself.
I've made my point, and now you're making it for me.

Guarantee most of those 48 instances happened in the last 15 years. It's becoming more and more important for managers to consider the things manon is saying. The MLB is babying it's players more and more every year. Follow the trends dude lol.

[manonfire101]

You said you didn't see it ever in your lifetime. Just that alone has probably happened (I don't know how old you are) more than 34 times in your lifetime. It's happened 10 times in the last 6 years. If we factor in position players being pulled early for accolades (whether home run or rbi or cycle or whatever) it's probably over 100 times in your lifetime. So, no, you didn't make your point. I don't know what statistics you were expecting me to find to invalidate your premise, but even if I had only found 1 I would have succeeded. I found several.

[Hugh]

Bullshit. It has not happened 34 times when a coach pulls a player on the verge of doing something historic JUST because he can. We aren't talking about pulling a player because of injury or fatigue or because of a strategy for winning the game. Those are all actual reasons.
Pulling a guy a single from the cycle or 7 innings into a perfect game or trying to hit 4 HRs in a game simply because he MIGHT get injured is what you and I have been talking about this entire time. That's what I can't remember seeing or hearing about. If it's happened with a young pitcher on a pitch count or a history of injury, fine. Either way you know I'm right and you've just expanded it anyone who has ever been yanked in one of those situations for any reason because you won't admit it.

[manonfire101]

I think it's the other way around, mate. I'm the one providing reasoning and statistics and you're the one making generalizations. It has happened. And as Spencer pointed it out, it's happening more and more now. Obviously, it would be hard to provide statistics for position players being pulled when they could have set a single-game home run or rbi record, or hit for the cycle, because technically there is a fraction of a percentage of that happening as long as the game isn't over. But it's pretty naïve to think that that has never happened. And I don't think it's something that's worth calling me stupid or arrogant, or telling me to pull my head out of my ass over.

[Hugh]

I feel like a coach who would do what you suggested would have to be extremely arrogant and stubborn. I feel like shutting the door on something special or even historic, despite what fans or players or anyone else wants, and not for any really good reason at all, let's be honest, is just a prick move all around. I mean you can say it's about injury risk, but these guys from Spring on play 200 games a year and could hurt themselves at any time. The real reason someone would do it, I think, is because they don't give a shit about the record and want the players to know who's boss.

[manonfire101]

No good reason at all and a prick move. Okay.

I've spent half of my Sunday giving you reasons why it would be necessary to bench a player who was having a historic day and we end up with this? That it's some ego-thing and the manager needs to feel superior?

I'm done. Enjoy the rest of your Sunday.

[Hulky]

Wrong sport, but Nick Foles was pulled early against the Raiders when he already had 7TDs.

[Hugh]

You've spent half your Sunday giving the same reason. You said because he might get injured. Might get injured. Your reason was, is and I'm sure will continue to be that he might get injured.
Yes there are reasons why a coach might pull a player in that situation, but because he might get injured is the reason you gave and what this mind-numbing conversation had been about all day.
And yes, again, if you would honestly pull Machado today, in the middle of an epic and possibly historic performance, and the reason you gave is that he might get injured...then I think that's a prick move and more about you than anything else.
That's my opinion and why I've been responding this way.
I'm done too.

[Hugh]

Wrong sport, but Nick Foles was pulled early against the Raiders when he already had 7TDs.

Apples and oranges, and you know it.

[Gryph]

lmao, this is still going on? Keep it going.

[Spencer 555]

I feel like a coach who would do what you suggested would have to be extremely arrogant and stubborn. I feel like shutting the door on something special or even historic, despite what fans or players or anyone else wants, and not for any really good reason at all, let's be honest, is just a prick move all around. I mean you can say it's about injury risk, but these guys from Spring on play 200 games a year and could hurt themselves at any time. The real reason someone would do it, I think, is because they don't give a shit about the record and want the players to know who's boss.

Dude, buck showalter is actually a huge fuckin prick. His way or the highway. I think you're probably right that he'd leave his player in the game, but I doubt very highly it's for the reasons u've stated. I think most managers in baseball.. most good managers, will do anything they believe is good for the team and disregard accolades. I think it's been stated before, but the managers job is to keep players happy and win, and if he believes that the best course of action is to sit his player he will (sometimes sitting a player doesn't affect his happiness, machado might agree with the decision, neither of us knows lol). The context of the situation raaaaarely matters ESPECIALLY in a tight AL east like this.

[Spencer 555]

GRANTED, I think managers in baseball are behind the systematic douchey coaches in football, basketball and hockey in terms of romanticism. I know some of what you've been talking about here (hugh) still exists and some managers are still fans of the game. I just think managers are becoming more "responsible" in terms of putting players health above everything. Look at the Aaron Sanchez going to the bullpen situation. If you're not familiar with that situation, Sanchez is a young pitcher on the jays who has never pitched over 130 innings in his career and the jays are worried about pitching him more then like 180 innings this year based on.. theory. It has nothing to do with scientific studies that suggest if he pitches less innings his arm will be healthier, it's just plain babying. They have determined that the long term benefit of putting Aaron Sanchez in the bullpen (which I remind you has no scientific proof of being beneficial at all so it's just based on a hunch) outweighs the chance of him winning a cy young and being our ace for the rest of the year. The manager and GM do not care that sanchez is the front runner for the cy young this year (or at least top 3) and they don't care that he can help them now as a starter. What they care about is his long term health and thats it. Stories like this are pretty prevelant around the league right now. It isn't really a big leap to assume managers will continue trending in the direction of babying players. Just look at the NBA and the san antonio spurs and how much praise they get for treating the fans like shit and resting entire starting lineups.

[Hugh]

Sorry but I've talked this subject to death and can't keep saying the same thing anymore. This isn't an issue of player safety. If Machado feels fine and healthy and the game is comfortably in hand and he has a real shot at hitting 4 or even 5 home runs in a game, you let him. Pick another time to rest him, but let the player play and perform. Pretty simple.

[Sanosuke]

I'd prolly bench machado and that wizard of a SS they have if we're up by 9 runs that early. Let some other guys on your bench get some at bats. Machado is an other worldly talent. He'll hit 3 HRs again. I'd leave him in if it's early in the season but we are in the late season, a couple months away from playoff baseball. I wouldn't risk injury, just like I wouldn't risk a lead and not let Craig Kimbrel convert a 4 out save in the playoffs like some manager whose name won't be said that was fired.

[Spencer 555]

Sorry but I've talked this subject to death and can't keep saying the same thing anymore. This isn't an issue of player safety. If Machado feels fine and healthy and the game is comfortably in hand and he has a real shot at hitting 4 or even 5 home runs in a game, you let him. Pick another time to rest him, but let the player play and perform. Pretty simple.

My point with the aaron sanchez thing is coaches will do what they want based on nothing. If they think it will be beneficial to rest machado for 2 innings of a game where he has 3 homers and 7rbis they will. If they don't they won't. It's a pretty simple concept and has nothing to do with context. Not really sure what you're failing to understand.

I get that baseball is a sport with a lot of romanticism and accolades mean a lot, but to most coaches and teams, accolades mean literally nothing. For all u or I know, if buck showalter removed machado from the game, machado woulda been like "Whatever's best for the team coach, u da boss". We don't know what's going on in the minds of these players or coaches, the only thing we can be sure of is that MLB clubs are progressively becoming more risk averse. You're making these blanket statements/assumptions that coaches and players care what fans want, but you can't really back up your statement with anything other then the fact that YOU think the right move is to keep the player in the game.

I just want to be clear here and say that I agree the right move is to keep the player in the game because u never know what will happen in baseball and u should treat every game like it's the last day of the season and you're tied for first. But I can't stand up for you when you're making assumptions about what players and managers WILL do. We can have an argument based on what they SHOULD do, but you're idea of what they will do (to me) is misguided. Like I've said multiple times now, every single year, the MLB is progressively babying the players more and more and if you're living under a rock and can't see that it's only going to get worse then this argument has been useless.

[Hugh]

Well good things coaches get it, otherwise baseball would be even more boring than it already is.

[Spencer 555]

Well good things coaches get it, otherwise baseball would be even more boring than it already is.

Well I mean, buck probably doesn't get it. Like Gypsy and I have said (and I know buck pretty well as a guy who's managed a team that I hate for years) he's the type who literally doesn't give a fuck about the fans or the game. He's a coach who wants to win at any cost and will do what he believes is best for the team to win. It just so happens that his approach lines up with keeping machado in at all times, never resting his players and getting rookie pitchers to throw at people.

If for example, a manager like buck (win at all costs managers - most managers in baseball) believed machado resting for 2 innings was the best chance for his team to win and make the playoffs, you're damn right that he would. Look at what joe maddon has done with the rays and the cubs and he's been praised as a genius. Look what the biggest dick coach in the world (he's awesome) Greg Popavich does every year with the spurs. Sits players and wins. Theres no real proof that sitting his starters keeps them fresh for the playoffs, but he does it and guess what! It has worked (no proof it's because of him resting players) AND GUESS WHAT other teams have copied it to varying success. It's gotten to the point in the NBA where star players (lebron james) demand rest and fans criticize coaches who push players too hard (35 minutes a night!? BLASPHEMY). The same shit is happening in baseball and every sport.

[Spencer 555]

And yes it's totally gonna get worse. And more boring (depending on how u look at it).

I personally still love baseball and think it's exciting, but some of the rule changes to protect players (the second base slide thing) have REALLY upset me. There's a lot I don't like right now about baseball, but with the jays being an exciting team right now and the absolutely amazing bullpens we're seeing in today's game I'm still a fan.

Fuck the strikezone being too low, fuck the posey/utley rules, fuck challenges where the manager sits at the top of the stairs and waits for his video crew to tell him to challenge or not (would be fine if there was a time limit for this, a very short one) and fuck never seeing another 300 game winner because pitchers get babied to shit. Im pretty amazed kershaw managed to get 300ks in this environment now that I think of it lol.

[Sanosuke]

Also, cue any reference of a star QB being pulled because of the score is out of reach for the opposing team.

[KBHoleN1]

I can't really follow all these posts, so maybe this has been pointed out a lot. But I don't think of position players in baseball being very prone to injury over the course of a few innings. Sure, things happen. But the risk of an individual game or inning over a 162 game schedule is pretty minimal. That's a lot different than a QB who only plays 16 games and is at a high risk of one play causing a serious injury. QBs don't get hit in practice because of the high risk, so limiting those hits is a high priority during games, and in a blowout you typically pull your star players (but not always). A pitcher is a different animal too, because of the wear and tear on an arm. And it's not that you get ahead by a big lead and automatically pull your pitcher, it's done because of arm fatigue or pitch count. But for a position player in baseball (not a catcher), what is the risk of injury from fielding balls or taking swings at the plate? Those are the same things they do in practice all the time, the same things they do in games all season long, the same motions they go through in offseason training.

[Sanosuke]

I mean, getting hit by a pitch, one bad swing at a breaking ball or up in the zone pitch, step off wrong trying to make a play on an almost out of reach ball, etc. I rather have a 0% chance of injurying said player once.we have a safe lead than anything higher than 0% of them.being in.

Edit: Plus, Let's assume players play 5 games a week, that's 31 weeks. Think of how careful teams are with baseball players when injuries happen. The injury it's self as far as healing time, rehab stints, etc. You're almost as out as long caparably to weeks in the season of an NFL.game depending on the injury.

[Sanosuke]

As a manager, who is directly responsible for the success of the team, you HAVE to play the what-if game. At least I feel like a good manager should. What if I let him play when we're up by 8 for another 6 innings and I lose him for a couple weeks, or the season? If I lose him will our offense be as feared? If they aren't feared, then the offenss will drop off because pitchers will attack the zone more. Is his non-guaranteed 4th homerun worth that? Is it worth us maybe missing the playoffs or being 1 and done? What's the benefit of leaving him in? Does this win count more than others? How many games up are we in the division? Will this raise team morale? Etc etc.

All important and fair questions. Fans should want to sin first, see special stuff later, because that's what teams should want.

[Hugh]

You're comparing a QB playing a violent, contact sport with 11 guys trying to take his head off every play to this? Seriously?
Machado was already halfway through a baseball game with a real shot at breaking a single season major league record. It was another 4 or 5 innings with no greater injury risk than the other 1500 innings he's going to play this year. What a terrible time to pull him out and "rest" him. Rest him some other time. Rest him ANY other time he's not having the game of his life.
And I watched the Mariners come back from a 10 run deficit THIS YEAR and win. So the game was not over in the 4th inning yesterday despite the score. Just saying.

[manonfire101]

Machado was already halfway through a baseball game with a real shot at breaking a single season major league record.

Which does not justify putting him at risk of an injury at all.


It was another 4 or 5 innings with no greater injury risk than the other 1500 innings he's going to play this year.

The difference being in the other 1500 innings he's going to play the games will be close enough to warrant that he plays.


What a terrible time to pull him out and "rest" him. Rest him some other time. Rest him ANY other time he's not having the game of his life.

Why is it a terrible time? You're up huge in a game that's already over. Give him a few innings off. It seems like the best time to do it to me.


And I watched the Mariners come back from a 10 run deficit THIS YEAR and win. So the game was not over in the 4th inning yesterday despite the score. Just saying.

Did the Mariners score all 10 runs in the 8th and 9th inning? And I don't think anybody on this forum was lobbying for him to be pulled in the 4th inning, just the last few. JUST SAYING.

[Hugh]

You're still asking why it was a terrible time to pull him? Unbelievable. Every single thing I've said about what managers consider and do in different situations goes right over your head and you keep going back to MACHADO DID NOT STATISTICALLY NEED TO FINISH THE GAME ACCORDING TO TABULATED DATA. DOES NOT COMPUTE. REMOVE PLAYER.
Mr. Robot.

[manonfire101]

Thanks, I'll take that as a compliment.

You haven't even made a valid argument as to why you should leave the player in. All you've said is "Well, every other manager would do it," which:
A) Is not something you can claim to begin with as you don't know what every other manager would do, and
B) Does not constitute a valid argument. You're not providing a reason to leave him in, you're taking refuge in consensus. I don't care how popular your position is.

The bottom line is you think that leaving a player in to chase an individual record is more important than keeping the player healthy, so why don't you just say that? Just say "I would like to see him have a chance to break this record and I don't care if he gets injured," because that's what you're arguing for.

[Hugh]

I've made a ton of valid arguments why he should ( and did, by the way ) leave him in. I'm not going to keep saying them just because you're not paying attention.
Call Buck Showalter and ask him. Maybe then you'll listen.

[manonfire101]

Okay I'll call Buck Showalter. Let me just do that real quick. Hold on.

[Hugh]

Cool. I'll personally consult every manager in the league on what they would do like you asked yesterday. Hold on.

[manonfire101]

You're the one who made that claim, not me.

[Spencer 555]

Congrats to ichiro, best pure hitter I've ever seen play.

[Hugh]

So Tim Tebow says he wants to play professional baseball.
I'm trying to can and I literally can't.

[Spencer 555]

Next mike trout

[Hugh]

Mike Trout might be able to play in the NFL.

[KBHoleN1]

Hey, if Jeff Francoeur can keep signing contracts, why not Tebow? From 2012 to 2015, Francoeur was 5.5 wins below replacement level, yet he's making $1,000,000 this year from the Braves.

[Da Gyps]

Hey, if Jeff Francoeur can keep signing contracts, why not Tebow? From 2012 to 2015, Francoeur was 5.5 wins below replacement level, yet he's making $1,000,000 this year from the Braves.

Bahahahaha this.

[Hugh]

Good point, but there are much better examples.
Consider Dustin Ackley.
Francoeur sucks, I'll give you that, but he's a superhero compared to Ackley. Francoeur has at least been decent at times. He won a Gold Glove.
Ackley has never been anything but ass. I've never seen a worse looking swing in my life. When he misses ( and he misses a lot ) it looks like he just threw his back out and dislocated both shoulders. Every time.
Did I mention he can't play defense? Can't play infield or outfield. No arm at all. The Mariners actually had him playing first base for a while and he couldn't even do that.
He can't steal either. He's fast, don't get me wrong, but he absolutely can't steal a base. He couldn't steal on a wild pitch from Stevie Wonder.
He's the worst big league player I have ever seen.
If he starts the season with the Yankees or any other big league team next year, they need to do a full blown investigation because something somewhere is seriously wrong.

[Spencer 555]

Good point, but there are much better examples.
Consider Dustin Ackley.
Francoeur sucks, I'll give you that, but he's a superhero compared to Ackley. Francoeur has at least been decent at times. He won a Gold Glove.
Ackley has never been anything but ass. I've never seen a worse looking swing in my life. When he misses ( and he misses a lot ) it looks like he just threw his back out and dislocated both shoulders. Every time.
Did I mention he can't play defense? Can't play infield or outfield. No arm at all. The Mariners actually had him playing first base for a while and he couldn't even do that.
He can't steal either. He's fast, don't get me wrong, but he absolutely can't steal a base. He couldn't steal on a wild pitch from Stevie Wonder.
He's the worst big league player I have ever seen.
If he starts the season with the Yankees or any other big league team next year, they need to do a full blown investigation because something somewhere is seriously wrong.

Justin Smoak bro

[Hugh]

He who shall not be named.

[Spencer 555]

Pretty sure Id take Ackley as a utility bench player over smoak. He at the very least has a decent plate approach. Smoak is just a horrible player to watch.

[Hugh]

Ackley has a terrible plate approach. I mean terrible. Even Smoak ( who is terrible, I agree ) has a slightly better career OBP, and considering Smoak has the longest and slowest swing in history, and is trying to hit the ball out of the park every at bat, that's crazy. Smoak is also good defensive first basemen. Dude can scoop. Ackley can't play anywhere.
He's a garbage outfielder with no arm and can't play infield. He's no utility player.
But I hate Smoak, too, so whatever.

[Spencer 555]

Ackley has a terrible plate approach. I mean terrible. Even Smoak ( who is terrible, I agree ) has a slightly better career OBP, and considering Smoak has the longest and slowest swing in history, and is trying to hit the ball out of the park every at bat, that's crazy. Smoak is also good defensive first basemen. Dude can scoop. Ackley can't play anywhere.
He's a garbage outfielder with no arm and can't play infield. He's no utility player.
But I hate Smoak, too, so whatever.

HAHA damn dude, Ill take you're word for it. Ackley always seemed like a not so bad defender at 2b/OF to me who didn't strike out that much and had an avg eye. I actually laughed out loud when u said smoak has the longest swing in history because that's exactly what I been sayin to all the delusional fans who think he's decent here in toronto. And smoak can pick it, but he's a potato otherwise, 0 range whatsoever at 1st and he's possibly slower then benji molina on the bases.

Not tryin to make a case for ackley though, they're both complete trash.

[Hugh]

Complete trash.
But speaking of ex Mariners who now play for Toronto, I'm happy for Saunders.
He's come down to earth some, which is no surprise, but seeing him play well and actually make the All-Star team there, especially being from Canada, is pretty cool. He always had talent and tools, but could never put it together or stay healthy in Seattle. He's not one of these guys who looks like he's swinging the bat underwater or makes running down a routine fly ball look painful.
Like DJustin Smoakley.

[Spencer 555]

Complete trash.
But speaking of ex Mariners who now play for Toronto, I'm happy for Saunders.
He's come down to earth some, which is no surprise, but seeing him play well and actually make the All-Star team there, especially being from Canada, is pretty cool. He always had talent and tools, but could never put it together or stay healthy in Seattle. He's not one of these guys who looks like he's swinging the bat underwater or makes running down a routine fly ball look painful.
Like DJustin Smoakley.

Ya it's a real shame he had major surgery on his meniscus last year. He lost a ton of speed to play the outfield and run bases with. But his bat has really come around this year. To be fair, he kinda always had a good swing and nice tools, just never really put the approach together till 2014.

[Hulky]

I heard on ESPN Prince Fielder's neck is messed up so he is like medically retired and the Rangers have to pay him like 90 million or something like that? Is that true/close to true? Seems insane for a guy that was hitting about .200 and wasn't even starting anymore. They said he's done and tied with his dad on HRs though so thats pretty cool.

[Hugh]

It's true. He announced his retirement.
And yeah, he has 4 years and $96 million left on his contract. As good a hitter as he was, I said back then that I'd never sign him to a long term contract because he was fat. Period. The guy weighs 300 lbs.

[Hulky]

that's nuts 20 something mil a year and you dont even get a player

[KBHoleN1]

Fielder will make $24 million a year through 2020. The Tigers are still paying part of that salary, amounting to $30 million from 2016-2020 (or $6 million a year). The Rangers have an insurance policy that will cover $9 million a year on Fielder. So the Rangers themselves are only on the hook for $9 million a year.

[Wizzy]

if someone told me i could be making $24million a year i'd have stuck with baseball as a kid

[Gryph]

Francoeur sucks, I'll give you that, but he's a superhero compared to Ackley. Francoeur has at least been decent at times. He won a Gold Glove.


He should of won a lot more honestly, but back in his heyday there were so many alternatives (Hafner, Abreu, Overbay, Ichiro, Morneau, Crawford, and Crisp etc) But Frenchy might go down as possibly one of the greatest defensive outfielders to ever play the game, his arm was a gift from the gods man. With the exception of 08' (Injury ridden with Mets in 09') He's save a shit load of runs, and consistently was leaps and bounds ahead of the other outfielders in terms of assists. Man I miss watching him back then lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJScUJnYtTI

Jesus that cannon.

[Spencer 555]

He should of won a lot more honestly, but back in his heyday there were so many alternatives (Hafner, Abreu, Overbay, Ichiro, Morneau, Crawford, and Crisp etc) But Frenchy might go down as possibly one of the greatest defensive outfielders to ever play the game, his arm was a gift from the gods man. With the exception of 08' (Injury ridden with Mets in 09') He's save a shit load of runs, and consistently was leaps and bounds ahead of the other outfielders in terms of assists. Man I miss watching him back then lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJScUJnYtTI

Jesus that cannon.

Funny how fangraphs has him rated a below avg fielder in general. I really just don't trust fangraphs defensive metrics... or really any defensive metrics. I think they do a pretty good job with CF, 3b and 2b, but everything else is rubbish.

[Gryph]

It has to do with a formula based on some backwater data. I don't think it takes into account HardHit%, So Frenchy fielding a screaming line drive and gunning someone out is taken with the same grain of salt as... Keirmier getting a knuckle line drive he catches.

[Gryph]

"Aaron Judge and Tyler Austin become the first teammates in MLB History to hit their first career home runs back to back in their first Major League at bats of their careers."

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/195348172/tyler-austin-aaron-judge-hit-first-home-runs/

Future is bright homies. ^^

[Hugh]

Mookie Betts with 3 HR and 8 RBI in the bottom of the 5th inning.
Let's see if they keep him in.:)

[Spencer 555]

Mookie Betts with 3 HR and 8 RBI in the bottom of the 5th inning.
Let's see if they keep him in.:)

Can't drop it can u lol.

[Spencer 555]

"Aaron Judge and Tyler Austin become the first teammates in MLB History to hit their first career home runs back to back in their first Major League at bats of their careers."

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/195348172/tyler-austin-aaron-judge-hit-first-home-runs/

Future is bright homies. ^^

I don't mean to be an ass, and I love you gryph, but everytime you post something about the yankees being good again really makes me wanna smack you. I'd be so happy if the yankees were terrible for the next 10 years lolol

[Hugh]

Can't drop it can u lol.

Where's the fun in that?
:)

EDIT- Betts did stay in the game until the end. Took all 6 at bats, even though the score was 16-1 after 5 innings.

[Spencer 555]

Where's the fun in that?
:)

EDIT- Betts did stay in the game until the end. Took all 6 at bats, even though the score was 16-1 after 5 innings.

Cause redundant arguments about player health is super fun :(

[Hugh]

Stanton out for the rest of the season, again. He has everything it takes to be one of the greatest HR hitters of all time, if he could just stay healthy. Too bad.

[Spencer 555]

Stanton out for the rest of the season, again. He has everything it takes to be one of the greatest HR hitters of all time, if he could just stay healthy. Too bad.

Legalize steroids!

[Gryph]

I don't mean to be an ass, and I love you gryph, but everytime you post something about the yankees being good again really makes me wanna smack you. I'd be so happy if the yankees were terrible for the next 10 years lolol

It's cool. lol. I'm just happy Hal finally realized a sinking ship before it was too late.

[Spencer 555]

Ya, it's gotta feel pretty reassuring knowing the yankees front office isn't incompetent. I mean, lookin back at the last like 5 years, it doesn't really feel like cashman has made any mistakes or bad moves, yanks farm system has just struggled to produce and the old players making shit tons of money have held the team down (old injury prone players at that).

I do wish the yankees would suck for a long time, but if I were a yankee fan, I'd feel pretty good about the situation as a whole. Yankees are 2-3 years or less away from contention. I truly believe Machado will be a yankee in a few years.

[Hugh]

The Angels have lost 11 games in a row. They're 20 games back in the AL West, last place.
It's hard to imagine how any team with Mike Trout and Albert Pujols hitting back to back could be that bad.

[Spencer 555]

Best player in baseball, the last best player in baseball, best defensive player in baseball and nothing else.

[Gryph]

Ya, it's gotta feel pretty reassuring knowing the yankees front office isn't incompetent. I mean, lookin back at the last like 5 years, it doesn't really feel like cashman has made any mistakes or bad moves, yanks farm system has just struggled to produce and the old players making shit tons of money have held the team down (old injury prone players at that).

I do wish the yankees would suck for a long time, but if I were a yankee fan, I'd feel pretty good about the situation as a whole. Yankees are 2-3 years or less away from contention. I truly believe Machado will be a yankee in a few years.

2018 will be almost a billion dollars spent on Fernandez, Harper and Machado.

Frazier
Machado
Harper
Judge
Bird
Sanchez
Castro
Didi
Refsnyder

Fernandez, Tanaka, Green, Mitchell, Quintana (If they go for 1 billion) lmao

...

one can dream...

[Spencer 555]

No chance lol.

[Da Gyps]

So this season has sucked buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut... What if Danny Duffy is a total badass guys?

[Hugh]

Fuck the Yankees.
Peace out.

[Spencer 555]

I think duffy is legit. always have liked his stuff, but really didnt think he would have the stamina or consistency to be a starter. I honestly had him and pomeranz pegged this year as elite setup guys who could become closers with the sp/rp title in fantasy which is incredibly valuable in daily leagues, but both turned into pitchers. My only concern with both of them is durability honestly.

[Sanosuke]

KB the future is here. DANSBY THE MAN SWANSON

[Da Gyps]

I think duffy is legit. always have liked his stuff, but really didnt think he would have the stamina or consistency to be a starter. I honestly had him and pomeranz pegged this year as elite setup guys who could become closers with the sp/rp title in fantasy which is incredibly valuable in daily leagues, but both turned into pitchers. My only concern with both of them is durability honestly.

Yeah I reaaaally hope they don't try to resign him to a crazy deal but this year has been great for him.

Anyway, back to 500 now with a home series against the Twins on tap, trolling me into paying attention.

[Hugh]

J.A. Happ having a Cy Young season. 17 wins already? The most he's ever had in a season was 12 and that was 7 years ago. Fucking weird.

[Sanosuke]

Swanson with 2 hits in debut. I went to highschool with him.

[Gryph]

J.A. Happ having a Cy Young season. 17 wins already? The most he's ever had in a season was 12 and that was 7 years ago. Fucking weird.

That's what happens when you finally learn how to throw your breaking balls for strikes.

[Spencer 555]

And his fastballs. Biggest difference ive seen is his favourite two strike pitch is the high heater which he paints in the top of the zone. Jays pitchers are country fastballers its cool, im scared for when the league adjusts but it seems like a lot of the better hitters are low ball hitters these days.

[Hugh]

The Mariners are playing well lately. Easy schedule helps but Felix is getting healthy and they made the right moves to fix the bullpen, which is really surprising to me. The offense has been good all year, so they could make a run at it.

[Hugh]

Hey, manon, Arenado is 3-3 with 2 HRs and 6 RBI and it's only the 4th inning!
But the score is 10-0 so they should pull him, right?
Because fuck his stats, or the fans who spent money to watch one of the best players in the game put on an epic show against the Cubs today. Fuck what they want. Fuck what he wants, too. He's your brightest young star and he's red hot and wants to play ( I promise ) but fuck him. He's not the coach. Also fuck his MVP bid. That shit doesn't matter. Just winning this game.
That's all that matters.

[Da Gyps]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

[manonfire101]

Hey, manon, Arenado is 3-3 with 2 HRs and 6 RBI and it's only the 4th inning!
But the score is 10-0 so they should pull him, right?
Because fuck his stats, or the fans who spent money to watch one of the best players in the game put on an epic show against the Cubs today. Fuck what they want. Fuck what he wants, too. He's your brightest young star and he's red hot and wants to play ( I promise ) but fuck him. He's not the coach. Also fuck his MVP bid. That shit doesn't matter. Just winning this game.
That's all that matters.

No. Just fuck you, buddy.

[Hugh]

Lol.

[manonfire101]

And ya, they should pull him.

[Hugh]

You're an idiot.

[manonfire101]

You're an idiot.

You're a genius.

[Hugh]

You're a genius.

So is Walt Weiss, since Arenado is still in the game.

[manonfire101]

Ya I'm really glad I got to watch him produce an out in a game that's already over. What a genius move. We've already lost a shortstop for the season, maybe we can lose a 3rd baseman too.

[manonfire101]

And by the way he just came out of the game.

[manonfire101]

Addison Russell had two home runs, too. I wonder why he came out of the game? I guess Joe Maddon isn't part of the genius club.

[Hugh]

Domo arigato...

[KBHoleN1]

And by the way he just came out of the game.
He batted in the bottom of the freaking 8th and then was replaced for the 3 defensive outs in the top of the 9th. This doesn't prove your point, if anything it supports Hugh's, because Weiss let him get every at bat then gave him the 9th off.

Addison Russell had two home runs, too. I wonder why he came out of the game? I guess Joe Maddon isn't part of the genius club.
Russell batted in the top of the 7th, then was replaced as part of a double switch. The Cubs collected 3 hits in the 8th and 9th, otherwise his spot wouldn't have come up again.

This is such a stupid argument. Baseball players get subbed out all the freaking time to spare them an inning or two of defensive exertion, especially in a lopsided game. Rarely have I seen a manager intentionally pull a player who is having the game of his life and cost him at-bats. It just doesn't happen.

[Hugh]

No surprise KB understands the situation.
He's not a robot, or an asshole.

[Da Gyps]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/ceob.gif

[manonfire101]

He batted in the bottom of the freaking 8th and then was replaced for the 3 defensive outs in the top of the 9th. This doesn't prove your point, if anything it supports Hugh's, because Weiss let him get every at bat then gave him the 9th off.

Russell batted in the top of the 7th, then was replaced as part of a double switch. The Cubs collected 3 hits in the 8th and 9th, otherwise his spot wouldn't have come up again.

This is such a stupid argument. Baseball players get subbed out all the freaking time to spare them an inning or two of defensive exertion, especially in a lopsided game. Rarely have I seen a manager intentionally pull a player who is having the game of his life and cost him at-bats. It just doesn't happen.

Uh, yes it does happen. It happened in this game, KB. Addison Russell had 2 home runs and he got pulled in the 7th inning. If your only argument against that is that you think it's unlikely that the Cubs were going to get on base 3 times in 2 innings either via hit or walk against a horrible Rockies BP at Coors Field to give Russell another at bat, then you should probably never give your insight into anything Rockies-related in the future. The fact that the Cubs did get 3 hits and Russell missed an at bat helps my argument, not yours.

But even if every manager in baseball decided to let a player chase records instead of trying to keep them healthy, I wouldn't care. I will defend this point against any consensus. It is dumb to risk injuring a player to chase a record that has nothing to do with the goal of the team: to win games.

@Hugh - No surprise the ad-hominem machine has nothing substantive to say.

[Hugh]

I tried explaining it. Now I'm just fucking with you.

[Spencer 555]

lol @kb whyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

so sick of this dumbass argument. the argument was never (do managers do this) it was (what is the smart thing to do in these situations).

[Hugh]

And the smart thing is to not fuck with your player, especially your best player. If there's any thought at all of pulling him in the middle of that, it's because something doesn't look right, like a suspected injury he's hiding. In that case you talk to your player and ask him how he feels. If you think he's ok you pat him on the back and tell him good job and let him finish the fucking game. You let him play and perform, and take a seat and watch like everybody else, which is mostly what managers do anyway.
Any asshole can crunch the numbers. Managers manage players, who are people, not units on a TAO board.

[Hulky]

Pretty insane how crap Joey Votto was early on, and how fire he is now.

[Spencer 555]

And the smart thing is to not fuck with your player, especially your best player. If there's any thought at all of pulling him in the middle of that, it's because something doesn't look right, like a suspected injury he's hiding. In that case you talk to your player and ask him how he feels. If you think he's ok you pat him on the back and tell him good job and let him finish the fucking game. You let him play and perform, and take a seat and watch like everybody else, which is mostly what managers do anyway.
Any asshole can crunch the numbers. Managers manage players, who are people, not units on a TAO board.

So your assuming that players dont want to rest and let their teammates have some extra abs in preperation for the playoffs. Your assuming that all players are selfish and would be pissed if the manager rested them. Your making general and braud statements about how players feel based on your clearly very biased personal impression. Joe Maddon and Greg Popovich are widely viewed as two of the best and most respected coaches in all sports and every player on those teams has bought into whatever the coaches plan is. If bryant had 3 homers in the 4th inning of a 15-0 game and maddon was like "great job tn dude, lets give you a rest and let your boy La stella close it out" I would bet Bryant would be like "sweet, go get it lastella, 25 man team!" not "coach, your an idiot, Im gonna get more dingers. Lastella fuckin sucks"

[Hugh]

And you're arguing something you know is completed horseshit. That's what's irritating about this entire thing. At least I believe in my opinion. You know that no player who hits bombs in his first 2 or 3 at bats wants to sit down for the rest of the game, especially if he's a serious MVP candidate like Arenado or Kris Bryant. His team doesn't want him to sit down either. Neither do the fans. Everyone wants to see him hit.
Baseball is a fucking spectator sport. It's entertainment and nothing else. There are tons of oppurtunities to give guys a rest. Why is this so hard to understand?

[Hulky]

what's the viewership numbers for random August game v. a playoff game or the world series?

[Spencer 555]

And you're arguing something you know is completed horseshit. That's what's irritating about this entire thing. At least I believe in my opinion. You know that no player who hits bombs in his first 2 or 3 at bats wants to sit down for the rest of the game, especially if he's a serious MVP candidate like Arenado or Kris Bryant. His team doesn't want him to sit down either. Neither do the fans. Everyone wants to see him hit.
Baseball is a fucking spectator sport. It's entertainment and nothing else. There are tons of oppurtunities to give guys a rest. Why is this so hard to understand?

Actually the fact that resting players in sports is agrowing trend and the fact that multiple people on here (fans/Spectators ) are arguing with you that they would rather have their star player sit in those situations is proof that everything you say is based on opinion.And since your oppinion is based on "feelings" and generalizations its kinda horseshit as you would say.

[Spencer 555]

what's the viewership numbers for random August game v. a playoff game or the world series?

I would guess terrible. Especially any day football is happening.

[Hulky]

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14117874_10153613114146650_1519249664315043398_n.j pg?oh=2eedcf3e80beac5d78b86f5dc7d58d73&oe=584010D0

Here's a picture of Andrew Miller warming up from my seat tonight at the A's game against the Indians.

[Sanosuke]

Nice man

[Gryph]

Gary Sanchez is making me question if life has a slider difficulty in the settings I'm unaware of.

[Spencer 555]

Just wait till pitchers adjust to his swing and he becomes a pumpkin.

[Sanosuke]

Just wait till pitchers adjust to his swing and he becomes a pumpkin.

Pretty sure it works the other way around. Rookie pitchers are supposed to have more success than rookie batters because of unfamiliarity with the pitcher.

[Da Gyps]

This thread needs more rally mantis.

[Sanosuke]

This thread needs more rally mantis.

Just wait until my team is good again in like, idk, 2-3 years.

[Da Gyps]

That would time up nicely with the Royals probably going back into a rebuild. I want to playoff party post again but it's gonna be tough for them to get there.

Nice to get a solid outing from Eddie tonight.

[Da Gyps]

I am becoming intrigued by the possibility now.

[Da Gyps]

Rally Mantis: https://twitter.com/woodymlb4/status/768973266367098881

[Sanosuke]

Dansby Swanson is a god

[Da Gyps]

You ready Gryph? Big series starts tonight.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/e3/15/83/e315839d92a8a6359e01e0d7a93fbaeb.jpg

[Da Gyps]

First inning mantis assault tonight. Hopefully it holds up.

[Sanosuke]

Nobody loves Swansom here but me. :(

[Gryph]

Nobody loves Swansom here but me. :(

I'll love him once he starts using his legs better and mashing homers. He's all upper body swing, good for gappers and the occasional dinger

[Da Gyps]

We are locked up in a pant shitter here Gryph.

[Da Gyps]

Pitching

B. Pounders

1.1 IP, 0 ER, 0 H, 2 SO, 0 BB

*giggle*

[Gryph]

Pitching

B. Pounders

1.1 IP, 0 ER, 0 H, 2 SO, 0 BB

*giggle*

I laughed at that to, almost as good as Rock Shoulders and Homer Derby. Not gonna lie Gypsy, these have been 3 phenomenal games. Insane baseball.

[Da Gyps]

I'm sure there weren't really any better options but losing with Chris Young out there is tough.

[Gryph]

I'm sure there weren't really any better options but losing with Chris Young out there is tough.

These games have been such gut checks for both teams, I think at the time all y'all had left in the bullpen was Kelvin who threw what? 25 the last night? Same with us except with Dellin. Regardless, Yankees last 30 games, 24 of them are against AL East opponents, here we go. The best time of the year, September baseball.

[Da Gyps]

These games have been such gut checks for both teams, I think at the time all y'all had left in the bullpen was Kelvin who threw what? 25 the last night? Same with us except with Dellin. Regardless, Yankees last 30 games, 24 of them are against AL East opponents, here we go. The best time of the year, September baseball.

Fuck yeah. For so long as a Royals fan all I wanted was relevant September baseball. It's easy to be spoiled by the last two years and lose that picture sometimes.

[Sanosuke]

Braves spoiled me for 14 years. Life is hard now

[Spencer 555]

Pretty sure it works the other way around. Rookie pitchers are supposed to have more success than rookie batters because of unfamiliarity with the pitcher.

Just noticed this, I find there is usually an adjustment period for hitters as well. Especially guys who burst on the scene and show immense power without the prospect pedigree. An example of this would be trevor story, he inevitably regressed considerably before making his own readjustment (aided by coors But still very impressive) I always jump on callups with big power and high swing and miss their first weeks (gallo, judge, story, sano) In dfs because pitchers inevitably underestimate them and it takes a couple games before the holes in their swings get exposed. Pitchers usually only take a couple abs before batters and scouting reports catch up unless they just have devastating stuff or they match up well against the team theyre facing.

[Hugh]

I'm still stunned by how good the Red Sox lineup is right now. An .820 team OPS at this point in the season is fucking ridiculous.

[Spencer 555]

ya theyre devastatingly good and only getting better. Benintendi also looks like a stud.

[Hugh]

As great a hitter as Giancarlo Stanton is, I wouldn't want him. He's missed significant time in 4 of the last 5 seasons, and he's still very young. I don't see that pattern improving with age.
The Marlins go the way he goes, of course. They were a good team all year and have tanked since he went down. You just can't count on him. Actually you can count on the fact that he's going to be awesome and one of the most dominant power hitters in baseball and then go on the DL for 3 months. Just not worth it.

[Da Gyps]

Agree with the premise. I'm thinking the Royals should move on from Cain after his contract is up for this reason. Last year was his most healthy year and he played 140 games. Plus he will be I think 32 or 33 when this contract is up so yeah.

[Hugh]

Big Papi has to be the MVP this year, right? Wouldn't it just be wrong not to give it to him?

[I'malive]

The crazy thing is that he won't even get the most votes on the team. Not playing on defense really does hurt his case, and Mookies non-counting stats are definitely better.

Edit: the more I look, it really just comes down to Mookie being an infinitely better base runner while playing gold glove caliber defense. He leads the league in total bases where Papi leads in OPS, and ultimately I don't think you could call either ones season at the plate better than the other.

[Da Gyps]

Just about ready to call the Royals dead, just losing too many games to bad teams down the stretch. They at least made it fun though, especially considering the injuries (which KC had been pretty fortunate in avoiding last year). In the end maybe it's only a couple games back but I don't see them getting a wc spot as it would take something like 15-4 down the stretch to pull off and even that MAY not do it.

[Hugh]

Mariners are back in the wild card race after winning 7 straight. I wouldn't have thought them or the Yankees would still be in the discussion 2 weeks ago.

[Sanosuke]

Big Papi has to be the MVP this year, right? Wouldn't it just be wrong not to give it to him?

No

[Hugh]

Check your emotions at the door, Sano.
In other words, you don't get to vote.:)

[Sanosuke]

Check your emotions at the door, Sano.
In other words, you don't get to vote.:)

Mike Trout? You think David Ortiz deserves it over a player who has produced 9.3 WAR, and should probably already have the other past 4 MVPs if baseball writers didn't like rewarding the same player consecutively?

All I said was "no" and I get told to check my emotions lol.

[Hugh]

It was a joke, man. I thought you were joking too.
But the conversation won't go anywhere because I don't believe the league MVP should go to a player on a bad team. That's my opinion. You can be the best player in baseball, which Trout likely is, but the most valuable player, in my opinion, has to bring some degree of success along with stats. It's like someone saying " Without Mike Trout, the Angels would have never been able to...finish 20 games under .500 and 5th in the AL West?"
Ortiz is leading baseball in OPS and SLG %, which is ridiculous for a 40 year old player. His numbers this year are incredible , and considering the way so many young Red Sox are hitting this year, his last year, and what he's doing, I think he's more responsible for the success of his team than any single player in baseball this season.

[Sanosuke]

It was a joke, man. I thought you were joking too.
But the conversation won't go anywhere because I don't believe the league MVP should go to a player on a bad team. That's my opinion. You can be the best player in baseball, which Trout likely is, but the most valuable player, in my opinion, has to bring some degree of success along with stats. It's like someone saying " Without Mike Trout, the Angels would have never been able to...finish 20 games under .500 and 5th in the AL West?"
Ortiz is leading baseball in OPS and SLG %, which is ridiculous for a 40 year old player. His numbers this year are incredible , and considering the way so many young Red Sox are hitting this year, his last year, and what he's doing, I think he's more responsible for the success of his team than any single player in baseball this season.

To say the hitting the youth is doing is because of Ortiz is kinda silly. He's not the hitting coach. He's not involved with how well a rookie hits. He might give tips here or there but Betts's success and other player's on that team's offensive success is their own doing.

Ortiz doesn't bring anything to the table but a bat. To not give a player MVP just because the rest of the team is under performing is silly and and an old school mentally that has no place in today's game or in any sport. Value is the most opinionated word to being with and the award should simply be renamed to "Most Popular Player That Played Well". If it was the MPPTPW award then yeah give it to Ortiz. WAR is as exact as we are going to get as fans with measurable value. Why should any player who puts up astromincal numbers every year get punished because the rest of his team blows massive cocks? In the same instance, Ortiz's value isn't a huge impact to his team and you can point to other players on that team that have done just as much and more than him offensively. He's basically on average if not a little better offensively in the grand scheme of things with the rest of the Red Sox offense. So how is he bringing the most value?

[Sanosuke]

What's more impressive to me is players that have to play the field and bat and are only .020 behind Ortiz in alugging. The AL MVP belongs to either Trout or Altuve.

[Hugh]

They should just change it to the Best Player Award and give it Mike Trout ever year then. Actually they should just call it the Mike Trout Award.

[Hugh]

In Mariners news: 8 str8 m8! That's gr8! They almost control their f8!
Don't h8.

[Da Gyps]

Just about ready to call the Royals dead, just losing too many games to bad teams down the stretch. They at least made it fun though, especially considering the injuries (which KC had been pretty fortunate in avoiding last year). In the end maybe it's only a couple games back but I don't see them getting a wc spot as it would take something like 15-4 down the stretch to pull off and even that MAY not do it.

Aaaaand not even going to approach that now. I'm performing last rites. Fun team, tough season.

[Sanosuke]

They should just change it to the Best Player Award and give it Mike Trout ever year then. Actually they should just call it the Mike Trout Award.

TIL the best player in baseball doesn't bring the most value.

[Hugh]

Well no, because there are several players bringing more value to their teams this season, because of what their teams are accomplishing and how important they are to that. As important as Trout is to the Angels, they're still in last place and obviously would also be in last place without him. It's not a difficult concept.
It's why Griffey only won one MVP all those years in Seattle. I thought he was the best player in baseball most years, but he only won it in 97 when we won 90 games and went to the ALCS. He carried the team that year and they wouldn't have made the playoffs without him.
It's not the Best Player Award. Never has been.

[Gryph]

It started changing the year they gave King Felix the Cy Young when he went, what? 12-10 that year?

[Hugh]

Cy Young is for the best pitcher in baseball, which he was that year. Nothing changed at all. A pitcher can win the MVP. Verlander, Kershaw. They won it the years they were the main reason for their teams success. The years they were the MVPs.
Again, not a difficult concept.
Gold Gloves go to players who play the best defense. Silver Sluggers are the best offensive players at their position. Batting titles, home run titles, triple crowns, all awards for the specific things.
The MVP is for the player who is most important or valuable to his team in that season.
Just look at the history of winners and the teams they were on.

[Gryph]

Yeah, my point being though is that even if he was the best pitcher that year, it would of gone to someone else because the BBWA valued a useless stat like Wins for a pitcher back in the later 90's early 00's (See, Bartolo Colon [Angels] over Johan Santana [Twins]). Like Sano said, it's most valuable player, not most valuable on a good team.

[Hugh]

Sano or whoever can want the award to be something other than what it is, but what it is is clear and I believe right.

[Sanosuke]

Sano or whoever can want the award to be something other than what it is, but what it is is clear and I believe right.

There's nothing "clear" about someone's opinion on who's considered the most "valuable". If Trout wasn't batting ahead of Pujols, Pujols would have terrible numbers. If Altuve wasn't hitting out of his mind, Correa would get harder pitches to hit. So on an so forth. David Ortiz is valuable, he simply isn't the "most" valuable this year.

Mookie Betts, on the same successful team Ortiz plays for, has 4 less HRs and 7 less RBIs, but has 3.6 more offensive WAR and leads the AL in defesive WAR where Ortiz has -1.0.

But i guess lets just give it to Ortiz because he's retiring and old.

[Sanosuke]

Also nobody is saying it's a difficult concept. We're saying the way the award is decided is skewed and basically wrong.

[Maverik]

you know he wasn't actually serious about giving it to Ortiz, right?

[Sanosuke]

you know he wasn't actually serious about giving it to Ortiz, right?

Probably partially serious considering he went out of his way to list every category Ortiz was leading in

[Sanosuke]

Do I not get to discuss about the MVP award if he even is joking?

[Maverik]

no, he wasn't remotely serious

[Sanosuke]

Ok?

[Spencer 555]

@hugh lol every time I come in this thread your arguing with someone and proving your points by stating "well that's how its always been in baseball and that's just how its gonna be". This traditionalist bullshit argument is so lame and annoys the crap outta me. Your like those announcers who talk about how donaldson's swing is so beautiful and easy and how he uses his hands marvelously even after he explained on ESPN that using your hands is old fashioned and retarded and baseball is evolving daily and he specifically said to all teenagers not to listen to little league coaches who teach hitting.

That all being said, I once again agree with what your saying, ROFL. I think it would be amazing to see Ortiz win the MVP this year. I know I'm avoiding measurable analytics, but the intangibles Ortiz brings to that club are absolutely monstrous. Without guidance from he and pedroia, I see that red Sox team struggling like the Astros have been. On top of all that, he legitimately leads the league in a lot of measurable hitting statistics. At 40 he is the heart of that red Sox lineup and I honestly see that team taking a bit of a step back next year without him. I could be wrong about all of this, but the MVP award IS definitely subjective and debatable. I personally hate seeing MVPs on losing teams unless there's a case like Harper last year where he was just so far ahead of everyone else. So ya, right now my vote would be either Ortiz or Donaldson. Tbh, without Donaldson, the jays would be less then a 500 team lol it's pretty incredible how important he is for this team.

[KBHoleN1]

You + are = you're. You've been posting here for a decade. It's time to stop being an idiot.

[Spencer 555]

Your moms a idiut

[Spencer 555]

Also in my defense, I was at work, rushing that text and not really paying attention to my spelling and grammar. But ya those yours are pretty atrocious regardless. I don't even have dislexia or any kind of excuse other than being lazy ;). You'd think by this point though that you guys would stop caring about the quality of my grammar, I'm sorry something so insignificant can actually bother you.

[Hugh]

I'm not a traditionalist when it comes professional sports, Spencer. Not at all. If you think that about me then you don't understand a thing I've ever said in any sports thread.
I think of pro sports and entertainment, period, because thats what they are. I don't give a fuck about the integrity of the game or purity or any of that shit. I'm all for pro sports being painted gold, cranked to 11 and set on fire.
But there's a difference between arguing what something is and what it should be. Different discussions completely. I've always been realistic about sports, even my favorite teams and players.

[Spencer 555]

If anything, true baseball traditionalists would laugh at both of us for supporting ortiz, so I get that your not a generic one, but u sure sound like one when you backup your points with arguments like that.

This mariners jays series coming up is gonna be big eh? I heard Vancouver is planning a hostile takeover of that stadium :)

[Hugh]

Probably. You guys always show up.
I'm pumped about the series. I'm just pumped about meaningful baseball in September. That's been rare around here.

[Spencer 555]

Ya I've always wanted to go sometime. Never have, but it's definitely high on my list of stadiums I wanna visit.

[Serge]

I can't believe yall spent so much energy arguing over who would win the MVP in the junior circuit. We all know my boy Murphy is winning it in the league that matters.

[Hugh]

Oh Murphy is your boy now?

[Spencer 555]

Bahaha my money's on Bryant for the NL, but honestly would love to see Murphy win it. Based on war alone Bryant is the best player for sure, but in terms of clutch rating he's been terrible all year.

Seager and Murphy deserve it more then Bryant in my books.

[Spencer 555]

I take what I said back about seager, I think Murphy should win it :)

[Hugh]

Bahaha my money's on Bryant for the NL, but honestly would love to see Murphy win it. Based on war alone Bryant is the best player for sure, but in terms of clutch rating he's been terrible all year.

Seager and Murphy deserve it more then Bryant in my books.

Seager? He's got 69 RBI? I mean he's a star in the making but he doesn't deserve the MVP this year.
And Murphy is a lock, I think. Bryant is awesome and having an awesome year, but so is Rizzo.
Murphy has carried that team all year. The season he's having, going to a new team, it just came out of nowhere. Nobody expected numbers like this from Murphy. Ever. Why would they? I kept waiting for him to slump, to turn back into what he's always been. A very good player, but not this. This is ridiculous.
He should win in a landslide.

EDIT- Dammit, Spencer! You ninja'd my whole post!
But at least you came to your senses.:)

[Spencer 555]

I think an argument could be made for seager over Murphy, but not seager over Bryant if u wanna look strictly at war. But defensive metrics are iffy and seager really lags behind Bryant/Murphy in traditional stats.

Murphy however leads the NL in WPA (win probability added - clutch hits/base running/fielding), obviously carried the shit outta that nats team, and is the clear best hitter in the NL (incredibly). He's my guy, but Bryant will win it because baseball voters are always a few years behind advanced statistics and in all honesty, Bryant vs Murphy is a tossup.

[Hugh]

No good argument could be made for Seager over Murphy.

[Spencer 555]

Seager has a higher war then Murphy. Case made.

[Hugh]

And Kris Bryant has a higher WAR than them both. So does Arenado. So does Max Scherzer. Who cares?
WAR is fucking stupid anyway.

[Hugh]

Murphy will win the NL MVP, Spencer. It's almost a no brainer. You're overthinking it.

[Spencer 555]

Lol I'm not though, i just dont feel like making absolute claims like one guy or another will win it. Murphy has the old school stats and the super new school stata, but i kinda expect voters to be either super old school or completely dependent on WAR.

[Spencer 555]

In that respect its war vs old school/wpa.

[Hugh]

Lol I'm not though, i just dont feel like making absolute claims like one guy or another will win it. Murphy has the old school stats and the super new school stata, but i kinda expect voters to be either super old school or completely dependent on WAR.

But voters aren't completely dependent on WAR so I have no idea why you expect that.
Batting AVG, RBI, Hits, OPS, Doubles. These are not "super old school stats." They're stats. Productivity. Baseball.
Also you said Kris Bryant will win the MVP, so you did make an absolute claim.

[Spencer 555]

I said i expect him to win it and that he probably will win it. And i think that has to do a lot with voters leaning toward the player with the highest war on the best team. I noticed its been a bit of a trend the last few years and I think that voters lean less toward oldschool stats nowadays and certainly are slow to adapt to new stats like WPA. But based on our last argument involving trends, im not gonna get into this with you.

[Spencer 555]

Just went back through my posts and saw where you mistook my "bryant will win it" for an absolute statement. I didnt mean for it to sound like a proclamation lol.

and yes the stats you highlighted are oldschool baseball stats, ill be honest with you i dont include any of those in my assessment of an mvp winner unless its to break a tie.

[Hugh]

Any of those? You don't take any traditional batting statistics into consideration at all?
I don't understand Canadians...
If you're just looking at WAR, since they're both on the same team, Scherzer deserves the MVP over Murphy. Would you honestly give it to Scherzer over Murphy?

[Spencer 555]

I look at a lot of advanced statistics. But war is a really solid baseline. And giving the mvp to a pitcher is really gay unless he broke some crazy old records like zach britton potentially winning the cy this year if he breaks the era record.

and dude i literally said i think murphy wins the award based on my analysis, I think war is imperfect.

[Hugh]

Is Murphy hurt? That could change things.

[Da Gyps]

I'm not a traditionalist when it comes professional sports, Spencer. Not at all. If you think that about me then you don't understand a thing I've ever said in any sports thread.
I think of pro sports and entertainment, period, because thats what they are. I don't give a fuck about the integrity of the game or purity or any of that shit. I'm all for pro sports being painted gold, cranked to 11 and set on fire.
But there's a difference between arguing what something is and what it should be. Different discussions completely. I've always been realistic about sports, even my favorite teams and players.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhnUgAaea4M

[Hugh]

Fuck yeah!

[Spencer 555]

Also should clarify that i dont represent the majority of canadians. Im definitely on the outside looking in on that argument. Pretty sure most canadian ball fans dont know what era really is.

[Hugh]

I think this 4th inning ruined any hopes I had of making the playoffs. It's like a bad dream that won't end.
GG, Spencer

[Sanosuke]

Great article on Theo Epstein by ESPN btw. Shit is a very intense and great read.

[Spencer 555]

Ya its not lookin good now. Still in the hunt though, baltimore has a very hard schedule and so do the jays

[Serge]

Is Murphy hurt? That could change things.

I'm praying that Dusty is just trying to make sure he is 100% for the playoffs. Rest him now so that he has time to get warmed up.

That's what I have been repeating to myself over and over while laying in the fetal position in the corner.

[The One]

Fuck, the Cardinals and Mets are making me nervous right about now. Giants can't afford to lose any more games if they want to take the Wild Card. :(

[KBHoleN1]

Did anyone see Utley's behind-the-back toss to first after he misplayed a ground ball? How cool is this?

http://m.dodgers.mlb.com/lad/video/v1182380783/collad-utley-makes-ridiculous-nolook-flip-to-first

[Greendaybum5]

Did anyone see Utley's behind-the-back toss to first after he misplayed a ground ball? How cool is this?

http://m.dodgers.mlb.com/lad/video/v1182380783/collad-utley-makes-ridiculous-nolook-flip-to-first

because fielding it normally is too easy for him haha. he's had some amazing flips like that in his career. miss seeing him in Phillies red

[Hugh]

I guess the reason I don't understand the people who say Bryant is the obvious NL MVP is because of Rizzo. He's having almost an identical year at the plate as Bryant. He doesn't deserve it over Bryant, but those two are definitely the twin towers of that lineup.
Murphy picked up the slack for Harper and then some. He's literally the reason the Nats are going to win the NL East.
But missing the last 2 weeks of the season, if that's what's happening, won't help his case. In a race this close it might kill it actually.

[Hugh]

Bryant .295/.388/.561 38 HR /99 RBI/ 35 doubles/119 Runs
Rizzo .293/.389/.549 31 HR /105 RBI/ 42 doubles/ 90 Runs

[I'malive]

That 30 run scored difference is the main reason I choose Bryant over Rizzo, and the same reason I take mookie over Papi in the AL. Although I've been struggling with that one internally for a while because Papi is the heart and soul of the team.. It seems like any time we win a low scoring game it's because he drove in every run...

[Hugh]

Jose Fernandez killed in a boating accident. So terrible.

[Spencer 555]

Yikes rip

[Hulky]

That's crazy he was only 24 too

[Spencer 555]

I hope they honor jose with the cy young. If the season ended today itd be him or scherzer.

[Serge]

That's the only scenario where I wouldn't be pissed if Scherzer didn't win the Cy Young.

Also, the Nats clinched the division a few days back. 3 division titles in 5 years with 3 different managers. Probably our third manager of the year award in five years as well. Mike Rizzo has built an awesome team.

[Greendaybum5]

that dee Gordon clip is amazing. 1st HR of the season then burst out into tears. Marlins did a great job honoring him.

[Hugh]

This AL wild card race is pretty intense. The Mariners are only 1 game back with 2 games left, Tigers only half a game. Blue Jays have dropped 3 in a row. You worried, Spencer?

[Spencer 555]

Ya ive been worried since we dropped the second game of the baltimore series.

[Da Gyps]

Dicks out for Toronto not making the playoffs. I'd even be okay with the Tigers over them (but pref Seattle).

[Spencer 555]

Seattle i can understand, but the tigers are super boring. Not sure why anyone would like that team.

[Spencer 555]

Its basically Verlander, Miggy and a bunch of players noone cares for lol.

[Hugh]

Really? Ian Kinsler, JD Martinez and Victor Martinez. Justin Upton is almost an afterthought in that lineup and he has 30 HRs.

[Da Gyps]

I dislike Detroit but I hate Toronto. Toronto is probably the least likable team in all of baseball across all levels.

[Spencer 555]

I wasnt talking about skillwise hugh, i was just thinking about likeability. Maybe its just me but i never pay attention to any of those guys and i find theyre all overrated (especially in fantasy baseball).

I think the jays are far more exciting and fun to watch. As for seattle you guys havent won a championship before so i can see why people would root for the underdog. Detroit had their time.

[Spencer 555]

And as for gypsy, i think hes just mad that the jays get upset when pitchers throw balls at their heads. To me bautista, donaldson, encarnacion and tulo are some of the most exciting players in the sport (less so this year :( ).

[Spencer 555]

Such a stressful last few days

[Da Gyps]

I was hoping the Royals would reach 82 wins, but oh well. Jays and Orioles in the playoffs.... On the bright side, one has to lose right away. Kinda actually would rather have the Jays win...

[Spencer 555]

So glad the game is at rogers centre, the orioles stadium woulda been fuckin awful (fanwise)

Whats your beef with the jays asshole lol. Are you mad that your pitchers are little bitches and throw at our heads and our players complain about it?

[Da Gyps]

Hopefully Bautista is okay later in life considering all the steroids he is taking.

[Da Gyps]

So glad the game is at rogers centre, the orioles stadium woulda been fuckin awful (fanwise)

Whats your beef with the jays asshole lol. Are you mad that your pitchers are little bitches and throw at our heads and our players complain about it?

I did actually just say I'd rather they beat the Orioles. Not a fan of Bautista or Donaldson in general. Bautista does seem like a decent guy though, I believe he has a foundation for helping Dominican kids go to college in the US.

[Spencer 555]

Its all in good fun man, im not tryin to insult your opinion :p. And ya baltimore (outside of the fact they hit dingers) have to be the least compelling team in the playoffs and possibly the least skilled on paper.

Random thoughts:

- Bautista and donaldson are actually such good people outside of baseball, they just get emotional as fuck in game and it rubs people the wrong way.

- Think its pretty funny people actually still believe bautista takes or took steroids. Assume your just trolling me though :p.

- why the fuck do red sox pitchers get to pitch with pine tar slathered all over their caps no questions asked.. kimbrel was so blatantly obvious in the first two games i was pretty damn annoyed.

- the umps the last two days were so awful. Saw a ton of non called balls that seemed like obvious strikes to me from both sides and even saw a called ball in the 8th against saunders that was actually a fastball straight down the middle of the plate and no one seemed to notice or care but me. It was perplexing.

[Hugh]

Congrats, Spencer.

[Da Gyps]

Yeah I have no idea if he is roiding (he could be, might not be, only he knows) but I was just deliberately trolling there.

Umpires are always awful, but it's part of the game. I would not be opposed to just using technology to determine balls/strikes.

Re Baltimore: I mostly just want to see them lose to watch huge douche bag Jason La Canfora have another meltdown/tantrum. From a baseball perspective yeah all they really do is hit HR and strike out. Meh.

[Spencer 555]

They were especially terrible the last 2 days lol. Angel hernandez was behind the plate in game 2 so no surprise there, but the called ball right down the middle was an ump ive never heard of lol

[Greendaybum5]

can't wait to see Scherzer vs Kershaw

[Da Gyps]

Giants will win it again. Too much Bumgarner.

[Hugh]

Hell of a game and a hell of a finish. Encarnacion with a walk off bomb in extra innings is as electric as it gets.
Congrats again, Spencer.

[Da Gyps]

Hopefully Spencer survived that game.

[Spencer 555]

Hahaha wow what a crazy game. I actually wasnt in town last night but watched it with my gf at a wing bar.

Coolest story though.. my gf predicted the outcome of the game. Backstory: my gf loves the jays and has been a fan since the beggining of last year. Shes not a baseball nut but she knows most of the rules. So her initial prediction of the manager pulling the orioles pitcher in the 5th was impressive to me (she made this call after the bautista homer). But i got completely shelled when eddy got that 3 run homer cause my gf called a win 5-2 for the jays when we were tied in the 8th. I was like u do realise if we go to extras the only way we can win 5-2 is if we get a 3 run homer right? And she says, ya endacacion (how she pronounces his name | inside joke) will hit a 3 run homer before the 12th and if he doesnt were goin home.

So i officially believe in female intuition now.

[Da Gyps]

Giants will win it again. Too much Bumgarner.

About that...................

[Spencer 555]

Hes absolutely incredible. Wish i got to watch that game last night.

[rainblade]

Never mind, no they didn't. lol

[Serge]

So stressed out rn

[Spencer 555]

Scherzer vs kershaw tn! Must watch tv

[Maverik]

Canada fucking sucks, but I do love Tulo

was sad to see him leave the Rockies

when I was in Little League, the first home run I ever hit was a grand slam and it was when my team was the Rockies, will always have a soft spot for then

[Serge]

Ugh, what a fucking awful game. We fucking HAD THEM. And we let fucking Danny Espinosa go 0-3 with 3Ks to strand 6 runners. You can't be mad at Espinosa for being shit. He's shit. You have to blame Dusty for starting him in the first place.

FUCK

[Spencer 555]

Dusty`s not a good postseason manager. Its works in the season cause hes an excellent players manager, but in the playoffs hes playing checkers.

Speakin of managers though, francona is a god.

[Da Gyps]

Dusty`s not a good postseason manager. Its works in the season cause hes an excellent players manager, but in the playoffs hes playing checkers.

Speakin of managers though, francona is a god.

http://kcsportsauthority.com/wp-content/uploads/ned-yost.jpg

[Spencer 555]

People on sports radio (call ins) yesterday were comparing franconas management of his bullpen to yost by saying theyre both so great.

Couldnt help think to myself, yost did nothing but play his guys in their roles and was gifted one of the most dominant bullpens in baseball history.

[Serge]

Nats even the series. Daniel Murphy is unstoppable. Hopefully good Gio shows up in LA tomorrow. Blake Treinen is the man.

[Serge]

Blue Jays fan at the game had a sign that read "WOULD RATHER BE PUNCHED IN MAY THAN KNOCKED OUT IN OCTOBER."

Savage.

[Hugh]

Saw that. Love it.

[Spencer 555]

What a fucjkig game!

[Hugh]

That was a statement for sure, Spencer.

[Spencer 555]

If Cleveland wins this series against the red sox I actually dont see us losing to them. Our pitching/defence is way better then boston (imo) and if our bats can stay alive, we can definitely deal with the indians pitching. I feel like the jays might just be getting hot at the right time and our bats are pretty devastating when hot.

Cubs vs Jays world series is my dream right now.

[Serge]

Yasss! Winning 4-3 against LA they use their closer Jansen in the top of the 9th and we drop 4 runs on his ass. Nats win 8-3. Lead the series 2-1

[Hugh]

That was huge. Werth had a big game. I've always liked him. He looks exactly like this homeless guy I give money to sometimes.

[Maverik]

was so mad when the Dodgers got rid of him

[Hugh]

Indians really took care of business. Cocoa Crisp with the big blast, of all people.

[Hugh]

Arrieta hits a 3 run homer off Bumgarner? Incredible.

[Spencer 555]

I dont understand how kershaw sucks in the playoffs.. its baffling

[Maverik]

he always does...

ugh

[Spencer 555]

Dodgers lucked out this game. If i had to bet, the nats are gonna win.

[Da Gyps]

Here come the Giants. Wrap up the postseason.